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PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Fragrant Harbour (https://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour-19/)
-   -   The latest AT drivel (half year loss edition) (https://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/606659-latest-drivel-half-year-loss-edition.html)

wdew 25th Apr 2018 11:30
RE
 
I hope the crew on tonights BNE HKG LONDON two legs are not too angry at AT and take it out on us SLF ...
C ya later.

Hongkie land 25th Apr 2018 13:53
frankly dont know why you al complain week after, months after months. get a real job. get a life. we will never win. she protected like the others. so stop 5h1tt1ng please. borin

Zapp_Brannigan 25th Apr 2018 23:12
The expectation management has begun.

For months, they've been begging to restart the negotiations.
Now that we are, the first thing they announce is that there's no money.

50% +1 vote, that's what they'll be aiming for, as usual.

​​​​​​

RAT Management 25th Apr 2018 23:50
Walk away on the first day... It's that simple.

Enough is enough.....

These clowns won't give anything unless they get big in return.

It's already been said in the weekly update, No increases to costs. Can only trade in productivity gains which means= you give a pound of flesh, and we will give you 1/2 a pound in lifestyle improvements and a 1/2 pound (empty) promise to look into something that will never ever happen..... Just like they did with 25year housing

It is truly pointless.... I can't wait to see the first update on negotiations......

​​​​​​We are pleased to announce negotiations have commenced and positive talks are being held. We are making good progress on issues around lifestyle but we are constrained by the business situation from engaging in talks that would see our overall costs increase......blah blah blah blah......vomit!

Bangaluru 26th Apr 2018 00:23
I completely agree. Round after round of failed talks and HPE and advance notice that the pilots are getting nothing out of the upcoming negotiations and an open statement that the culture needs to improve.

Let them improve it, then talk....maybe.

raven11 26th Apr 2018 00:49
Disappointed by the latest DFO update but not surprised.

There is no single issue that would have a greater positive impact on the Company’s bottom line than an end to the training ban. Not one. By stating that the Company will not make any monetary concessions is their way of saying that we must be willing to, yet again, agree to trade something away,...to concede.

Their denial of the training ban’s negative effect, in the face of their admission to only 10 JFO upgrades this year and their plan to upgrade over 200 next year, is becoming harder to do with each passing day.

It seems to me that the AOA should walk away from negotiations until the time to begin those 200 upgrades becomes the Company’s overriding consideration.

Freehills 26th Apr 2018 00:54
The fuel hedge losses - or rather, the fact that no-one was fired for them - show that senior management can allow costs to increase with no negative consequences for their careers.

Apple Tree Yard 26th Apr 2018 01:30
Walk away now. This "negotiation" is beginning the same way as all the previous dealings with the company: lies and deceit. Once they announce that they acknowledge the truth of the situation then we can sit down. Without at least that, there is no point in talking with them. If they insist that there is no money, and the training ban is not an issue, then politely wish them well and walk away. Just like hundreds of pilots are now in the process of doing from this sad and miserable company. As a previous contributor mentioned, they are simply looking to get 50% + 1. That road leads to further career destruction in the long term. Major pilot unions around the world insist that ALL pilots benefit from EVERY negotiation. All CX wants to do is divide and conquer. DO NOT play a part in that process GC/NC.

Air Profit 26th Apr 2018 02:14
Why do we constantly put up with this bullXXXX? They seemed to have PLENTY of money to pay nearly all the OTHER STAFF a full 13th month, AND give the cabin staff a pay raise. FFS, can we please (PLEASE!) walk in to the room, lay out a list of DEMANDS and then walk out with a "call us when you are ready to sign" comment. I'm sick of this pathetic lying sack of XXXX we call a management. Stop negotiating any concession for any group.

Tea time 26th Apr 2018 06:16
Air profit , one of 2 things need to happen to achieve an improvement in COS
1) everyone gets angry enough to finally realise that the job is going down the tubes and only an all out fight to the end will achieve what you are looking for and by that I mean be prepared to walk . I most certainly am
2) enough Pilots quit and , they are unable to recruit new talent then they MAY finally get the message that to run an airline you need pilots

Hiro Nakimura 26th Apr 2018 11:14
So what happens if they don't consider concessions? Will their costs go up or down if the Training Ban remains in place? Will recruitment get easier or harder? Will time to upgrade to FO increase or decrease?

Seems obvious to me - don't concede anything - let them deal with the consequences of their own ineptitude. And let TCC's boy 'mitigate' to his hearts content. I believe he has previously mitigated an SO's wife;-)

Starbear 26th Apr 2018 12:51
Training Ban effective?
 
Get an SO to show you the recent memo from PC in which he references the TB as an issue at least 3 times.

Zapp_Brannigan 26th Apr 2018 16:30
AT, as always, is blaming the AoA for the TB and the slowing down of upgrades.

PC needs to keep the SOs from resigning and therefore is trying to convince them that the TB has little effect and that they will be upgraded soon.

What they are both trying to achieve though, is to get the SOs to vote YES next time.

There's no money in the pot but:
  • Reinstating RPs costs nothing more than before.
  • Not reducing ARAPA costs nothing more than before (and everytime a B scale is replaced by a C scale, they're saving money)
  • Allowing fleet transfers might seem to cost money but it increases motivation in the long run, probably decreases sickness rate, so I call it cost neutral.
  • An HKPA raise costs money but keeping the training costs down by not having 1 pilot resigning each day will surely make up for it.
  • Getting rid of the Training Ban and contract compliance will save them big money. (What was the idle time of one 747 last year because there were no crew available? Wasn't it something like 80 days?) That money could well be used for a raise.
Too logical for them, I guess?
​​​​​

plainpilot11 26th Apr 2018 16:54
Here we go again!
 
The joke continues.

Starbear 26th Apr 2018 18:00
Originally Posted by Zapp_Brannigan (Post 10130890)
AT, as always, is blaming the AoA for the TB and the slowing down of upgrades.

PC needs to keep the SOs from resigning and therefore is trying to convince them that the TB has little effect and that they will be upgraded soon.

What they are both trying to achieve though, is to get the SOs to vote YES next time.

There's no money in the pot but:
  • Reinstating RPs costs nothing more than before.
  • Not reducing ARAPA costs nothing more than before (and everytime a B scale is replaced by a C scale, they're saving money)
  • Allowing fleet transfers might seem to cost money but it increases motivation in the long run, probably decreases sickness rate, so I call it cost neutral.
  • An HKPA raise costs money but keeping the training costs down by not having 1 pilot resigning each day will surely make up for it.
  • Getting rid of the Training Ban and contract compliance will save them big money. (What was the idle time of one 747 last year because there were no crew available? Wasn't it something like 80 days?) That money could well be used for a raise.
Too logical for them, I guess?
​​​​​
actually I read it as if he was saying that but for the TB their careers would accelerate much more quickly?

main_dog 27th Apr 2018 00:26
Originally Posted by Zapp_Brannigan (Post 10130890)
  • Allowing fleet transfers might seem to cost money but it increases motivation in the long run, probably decreases sickness rate, so I call it cost neutral.
​​​​​
This one is particularly egregious. THEY need fleet transfers: right now from B747 and T7 to Airbus, tomorrow back to the T7 as the new ones arrive. Fleet transfers are a reality of multi-fleet airlines, and they will only ever allow as many transfers as they need.

They’re just trying to sell us something they needed anyway as an improvement to us, just like they tried to say CMP was for our benefit. They would sell you your own watch off your wrist if they could.

Farman Biplane 27th Apr 2018 03:10
There is money in the pot, sum up all of the CN/FO/SO unpaid 13th month amounts and there you have it.
This along with the lack of CPI increases to the pay scale and we have quite a bit of credit in the pot already!
NO CONCESSIONS


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