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ASR(F) those two SO LRO flights
The company plan to further increse LRO flights where two SOs are rostered. Given the lack of FRMC input, the only way we can stop this becomming the norm is to highlight the problems with ASR(F)s.
S/Os, if the person sitting next to you takes controlled rest, urge him or her to submit an ASR(F). You will be RQ soon enough, so this is your future that you are protecting. F/Os, don't risk your licence or reputation doing sectors/landings when you are fatigued. If you miss RT calls, make operational mistakes or take controlled rest, then file an ASR(F). Capts, please encourage crews submit ASR(F)s for any of the above. Can we try to restrict replies to the ASR(F) message and not the other issues concerning the crewing of two SOs. |
'Had a dream' the other night, and was dreaming to have dinner with a certain Asian city's aviation officials and this was the topic... if u you think the company is gonna filter through those asr(f), there is apparently a link to a reporting form on the cad website, was told in that dream they would love to see those on their desk if something wants to be done
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Totally agree TWT. If you feel fatigued, for goodness sake, file an ASR-F.
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A good discussion on this subject on the HKAOA website in CX General. A reminder that ASR(F)s can be filed in PDF format to save time and effort. The link is via SAFETY in the LHS menu of the FOP homepage on intraCX.
File an ASR(F) for Christmas! |
Reluctance to flile ASR(F)s
Why is there a reluctance to file ASR(F)s on two SO flights? A lack of reporting sends the message to the company that there is no problem with this crewing pattern. Is that really what all of the RQs not reporting believe? If we fail to resist at this stage then expect a full scale roll out across Europe. Then they will probably start to look at the feasibility of doing this on North American routes. Some evidence suggests that a longer flight time enables a better sleep opportunity for the RQ. So, who is still going to condemn themselves and their colleagues to a lifetime of fatigue by not reporting? Will any RQs that have used controlled rest on these flights and not reported it, care to enlighten the rest of us why not? Will the SOs and Capts please remind the RQ to submit a report if he uses controlled rest or is affected by fatigue. |
Could you all please read hyg's post and act accordingly. Direct to the CAD online. If you want to stop this that is.
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Is there an online link? |
Our just do what the cabin crew do to change a pattern. Go sick if you are not in the right state of mind. Once reserve levels are exhausted on a regular basis. Change occurs. ASRFs do nothing
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I have done my fair number of these two SO flights. I have not submitted an ASR-F. Three crew AUS flights are far far more fatiguing than these 2 x SO flights. I have not taken controlled rest on them but have many times on 3 crew flights (yes ASR-F submitted). I think the main reason FOs are not submitting the forms is because, they are not that bad...... It devalues the ASR-F system in my opinion if used as a weapon.
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Common sense will tell you that there is a small measure of risk associated with crewing a flight with one inexperienced second officer. Crewing a flight with two inexperienced second officers doubles the risk... Fatigue issues arrise as increased monitoring is required. Mitigation strategies such as ensuring that at least one of the two second officers meets a certain experience requirement would seem logical. Quite simple really. |
I agree, this is a bad idea for the reason mentioned above, sometimes very low experience levels in the flight deck. That is the only way to really fight this. The fatigue argument is hard to justify given the more fatiguing patterns out there, 3 crew from N America in the 400, 3 crew AUS and ME, two crew from India, three crew WOCL regional turnaround flights at max FDP. There are far worse patterns out there, it is hard to accept those, whilst making noise about this and trying to pressure guys into filing ASR-Fs. This is not a fatigue fight but unfortunately it's the only feedback option readily available, it is tempting to use that unprofessionally.
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Playing Devil's advocate for maybe the first time ever on PPRUNE and obeying the OP who asks for a discussion on ASR(f) only - As someone who regularly does EU flights, it is still 4 crew. And since we dont want to be chatting about experience levels, training ban, 5 years to upgrade etc etc, there is no difference.
Long haul is still difficult and everyone is fubar on landing. All FOs that I fly with (who strangely enough don't have applications in with Qantas or BA) say there is no difference. And I'm pretty sure our Freighter cousins would love a 2nd SO on some trips. Fatigue is Fatigue and should always be ASRf'd, 2 SOs or not. Now if we are allowed to talk about the wider matters that Having only 1 FO on the flight deck would cause after a 12 hour flight, typhoon in HKG divert to TPE - then that's a totally different discussion. |
Betpump, you make me laugh. "...(FO/SO)...who don't have applications in with QF or BA...". I guess we are flying for a different airline. Just landed from a Europe port a couple of days ago. Two FO's and a SO over the two sectors leaving. I guess the approx 100+ that have resigned since the beginning of the year are a figment of my imagination as well? I suspect your crew see you as a "company man" and therefore are stumm around you.
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