DPA tight lipped on COS attack
 

So , we are all aware that the company came with their begging bowl last week . But there’s been zero feedback from the DPA. As usual, every 3 years, the guys on the Comm suddenly become frugal with their communication skills once elected. Feedback is slow and smoke and mirrors prevail.

The latest rumours : housing max 50k for B scale . C scale up by 10k.
As C scale now outnumber B scale , we all know which way the vote will go.

Well done DPA, by concentrating on the C scale woes in the past you are going to shoot your long time members in thir financial a$$.

Please please , no management kowtowing.

No accepting those training positions that are usually offered as sweetners for the Comm to comply. Its happened to every comm. And accepted with glee. Members join the comm, with a shout to protect members rights , but ultimately, sell them down the river.

Meanwhile, when the dust settles, we find the same comm member is a LTC or worse an assistant manager of some sort.

It happens after every COS negotiation. The current bunch are no better. Shame on you if you go down this road.

BTW, I could have posted this on the DPA website, but as everyone knows, managers are all fully paid up DPA members enjoying its benefits. They always snoop at the forums. Yes, a Ludicrous situation, but 100% reality.

Staff Travel
 

Perhaps, taking into account the latest share sale" we can expect another little COS 2017 sweetener from the DFO.. Packaged as a "Staff Travel Enhancement" (e.g. bend over)

QR now gets Pri 25 on CX/KA network and we get a once a year Pri 4 FOC to Doha :ok:

They have the Museum of Islamic Art and the, the, the........ well, you get the picture..

Regretably you guys have brought this on yourselves.
Earlier threads pleaded with you to support the AOA and guys at CX. You ridiculed us and told us we deserved everything we got ( or lost ) after all we "were long haul pilots " REMEMBER.

Our offer to combine forces remains on the table.

By the way in the latest QR report from Al Jazeera, there are no plans for CX Dragon at all. You will be absorbed.

How much of a drop is that for housing for you guys/gals?

Shame to hear you are going through the same stuff as at cx.

AOA/DPA should get together in a room.

You guys should have tried HPE/CPS, it really is the business.......TTW

Are you a troll ?

Originally, the view of CX pilots was we should accept a bottom of your seniority list shafting.

Since then, we have doubled in size. This is something I never understood from your side. We were not being bought for a high price to be shrunk. Many of those commands should have belonged to CX First Officers. That they were not, allowed an easy introduction of a rapidly promotable to command, C scale pilot. Couple this with the local competition, who you would have to consider a low cost product, and now the view is both CX/KA groups are overpaid.

You appear to be another pilot blaming his woes on others and unable to face the stark reality of the contract compliance you chose.

Certainly not a troll and old enough to remember that Dragonair went bust and was bought out entirely by CX. In aviation that means KA pilots go to the bottom of the list and no amount of spin can change the laws of the jungle.

You mean like Staff Travel, that kind of bottom of the list?

No indeed they never went bust; bought out ( from Stanley Ho from memory when their 737 operation encroached on the cucumber sandwiches’ comfort zone ), sold to CNAC pre handover then bought back in some strange convoluted scheme wher Air China took a share in us and we in them.
Have always made a profit to my knowledge.

Oh your jungle is ferocious. Pilots join KA off the street and get a Group command in a year. Ok, if that isn't shafting your own F/O's, how foolish an opportunity was lost by a blinded legacy union? Then you bitch over "supposed" higher pay at KA.

You know. the hard cold facts are, to win your industrial tiff, requires you and a good deal of your friends just to pack up and leave! Which is what happened at KA a decade ago.

The staff travel issue was agreed by KA guys and your management and forced upon CX staff. This won't happen again.
KA did go bust. It had nibbled at routes CX didn't want or couldn't operate profitably. 30 years later it still operates routes CX doesn't want.
As for seniority transfer, what happened to all those captains on the KA freighters when they transferred to CX. Every one of them started in the RHS.
As for CX F/O's and KA commands, the CX contract has a non poaching clause. CX pilots adhere to contracts. If that changes then you had better look out.
Your DEFO and DEC situation is your own making.
P.S. In Europe you get a 320 command in a heartbeat but most of you lot couldn't even manage that. Get real. There is no way any of you would pass the CX selection and you know it that's why you applied to KA after failing your commands in Europe.

KA is by definition " a wholly owned SUBSIDIARY of Cathay Pacific".

Yes, you've been quit since the last GMO mentioned you by pprune "handle" in a Friday update !

Is the DPAC or management leaking information? We have too many trainers evidently and KA management positions becoming extinct, so I'd have thought union career plays sensibly out of fashion !

Oh dear, is he really one of yours?

To be 100% clear about what was proposed wrt CX/KA seniority list integration, it was a “Y” merger whereby all KA pilots go to the bottom of the CX list and all CX pilots go to the bottom of the KA list. New joiners would join at the bottom of both lists which would functionally become a merged seniority list for both airlines. This would have, in time, created base opportunities for KA pilots and earlier commands for CX pilots. What’s the downside?

The Company was not interested in this plan. I don’t know if that’s solely because it wasn’t their idea or if they planned to use the two pilot groups against one another. If the latter, they haven’t been effective with that, but we (AOA/DPA) aren’t very smart about joining forces to protect each other either.

Hahahaha do you mean rigorous like “do you have a CPL & a pulse? Yes? Welcome aboard!”

The pilots who flew CX aircraft and worked for ASL or those who worked for KA, or those who worked for Oasis all started at the bottom, even if they were already were or had previously flown green aircraft, it was based upon when they joined the green contract. Some CNs from CX went to Oasis after spending considerable time at CX and rejoined CX again at the bottom when Oasis folded.

CX also has seen growth, the KA pilots that cam across have gone up around 500 numbers on the list, still in passenger FO territory. They now have around 1200 pilots junior to them. CX has grown by another KA in that time.

That’s 1200 pilots senior to any new joiner, including the ones still in the red machine.

I have no dog in this fight at all. But it's a good read. There used to be a guy called Compylot who would frequent the OZ/NZ forums and chuck in ridiculous, childish moronic comments just to be a tool.

He was easily the biggest twit on PPRUNE. But, you, CHECKLIST COMPLETE, have just raised the bar.

swh

There was nothing to be gained for KA pilots promoting a bottom of the list merger. Since the acquisition of KA by CX, every pilot in KA has had a command on offer, with many having progressed even further up the food chain.

Our perspectives are different, yours being legacy and mine being contract. But there is no sense and I'd hope appeal, in the modern aviation landscape, of being in "passenger F/O territory" for seniority versus a KA command. I think this is what many of your F/O's will be finding out now with delayed and if ever upgrades. Concurrent career paths and legacy airline positions can diverge rapidly leaving many exposed.

There is little appeal for KA pilots to be merged with CX ( by choice ), beyond a shiny-jet syndrome whereby some KA pilots would prefer long-haul, even if immersed in a toxic culture. We probably have a better basing option with RRO and hints at its expansion ( a con in my belief to calm senior pilots ). Our culture on the coal face is not toxic due a significant disconnect which evidently, according to this week's rumours, has external consultants puzzled.

Who knows what's in store? KA's training department has been front loaded and the demographic shift has been significant. We were the proving ground for the C scale captain seated with a 150 hr cadet. Seniority aside, this is would not have happened if our pilot groups merged and I think it has had impact in the current environment beyond the numbers involved.

Well there would have been 10 years of seniority, and they would be ahead around 1500 pilots from the bottom of the CX list. That is CX passenger command territory.

When the KA freighter pilots came across in 2008 they were already over 500 pilots added to the CX list.

All your post is saying to me is that you (and fortunately not the view of the majority of KA pilots I know) don’t respect seniority.

You seem to think you should be placed above pilots on the CX list having never worked for the airline a single day and throw every junior CX pilot under the bus at the first chance.

Are you really bringing in pretend KA friends into the discussion to try and promote your slewed view of where the pilot groups should be?

There has never been nor is there now, any value in KA pilots volunteering to go on the bottom of any seniority list. We have always been better off on our own. I respect seniority and I think you have thrown your own F/O's under the bus by relinquishing command and expansion opportunities at KA. It required pragmatic thinking, not legacy snobbery.

There is little attraction in being a CX pilot. There is nothing on offer I can think of remotely attractive? Long-haul, min-rest and jet lag in a caustic environment? And the way you operate?

KA is a far better job. I've no doubt the knives are sharpening but it helps to view the position as a contract. I'm even more confused that in one thread here there's spiteful jealousy from the CX camp at KA pilots "supposed" better pay yet in the next, you all think we want your job!

Years ago, KA pilots made Newsweek.

Here's some quotes from the article "Airline Pilots In The Brace Position"

"Result: the airline has had to increase pay by up to 60 percent. They aren't the only one with troubles. Hong Kong-based rival Dragonair has reduced scheduled flights following an exodus of pilots due to pay and scheduling issues. "The fact is that there are currently more vacancies than there are pilots throughout the industry," says Dragonair spokesperson May Lam-Kobayashi."


"And pilot pay keeps rising. After a two-year negotiation, Hong Kong's Dragonair offered its pilots a 20 percent raise in mid-December, affirming that pilots are in the driver's seat."

Where would KA be without CX aircraft, CX providing the overheads, CX slots, CX marketing/network, CX routes ?

Who exactly will be paying for the new narrow bodies ?

KA didn’t expanded on its on merit, it expanded by CX providing the equipment, routes, slots, network, and money.

If you want to be on your own, don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

When KA, with their stated training surplus, are doing all CN upgrades for CX next year it will solve both the KA CN shortage and the training difficulties at CX. Then we will have CX captains on CX COS flying KA aircraft, just as the precedent has been set with the JFO upgrades. Yet again TTW for CX! If I was a KA FO that was purposely delaying command, I would be in the office ASAP and getting on a course!

Nothing like a bit of pilot unity to scare management.
Another FH thread descends into farce.

Truly amazing fellas. The company is after us and yet here we are fighting amongst one another. It's no wonder the company isn't afraid of pursuing cuts because they know we will sell each other out without hesitation. There is no KA pilots vs CX pilots, its pilots vs the company. Stop acting like children and pull it together.

Exactly. This thread is sounding like something from the life of Brian with the Peoples Front of Judea hating the Judean People's Front more than the Romans.


There is of course the possibility there are some Romans on this thread trying to divide and conquer!

....well, AT does have a house in Italy....

As a long time CX pilot...I can remember when we were all extrembly proud of having landed a job at CX....a real feather in your cap experience. We were damn proud and very arrogant, I admit it. We used to walk past pilots from rival airlines with such pride. No more. I walked past a group of pilots from my home country’s airline the other day, and just hung my head.

Dragon vs CX....enough with the seniority list squabbles...these days I’d rather be a Dragon pilot. They still have their dignity.

Genuinely amazed by this comment. Cathay bought Ka to curb its expansion plans, as they would have competed directly with CX. Ironically by stopping KA expanding, it allowed HKA to do it instead.

The KA of 2006 had Jumbos on order, plans to go to Sydney, and real expansion plans way beyond what we have seen in the last 12 years. time to command was 2-3 years, we had slots we had orders we had growth. 10 years of Cathay ownership resulted in a new paint job. We went backwards for the best part of the decade, we are only now just starting to see comparable growth to how it was in 2006.

And you’d be welcome for behaving like a good bloke 👍

There is honestly no point in the debate on if/or seniority merger if we all haven’t learnt yet the company will impose what it wants irrespective of the pilots from either side. Most likely they will do what causes the most animosity between the two groups just to ensure we continue to fight amongst ourselves. They have done divide and conquer all this time they not going to drop the ball this time.

Getting back to topic ...
 

Interesting shot across the bow by DO last week - obviously under the pump to identify savings from Flight Ops, but limiting the options to non-contractual variations. As if we can be flogged any harder!
Personally, I think all this hand-wringing is overblown; screw with the B-scale contracts and there are enough "mad Max" crazy capts to shut the operation down.
You don't give up 20 years of fighting for improvements just like that! The DPA is keeping its powder dry - no point jumping at shadows - but if push comes to shove I dont think Kitty City appreciates the levels of antipathy and loathing.

Don't poke the ants' nest!

Ah well, someone will be pleased"

SCMP

Hong Kong Express banned from adding new aircraft, flights or destinations | South China Morning Post

Oh thats a master stroke, they are cancelling their own flights because they haven't got the crew, so CAD bans them from expanding. Awesome response.