China the Country. China the delay not determined, the joke.
 

Shanghai/Beijing the airspace delays are not sustainable!

The other day 6-9 hours delay to fly too Beijing! Why?

1. 100% of China Airspace controlled by the military.
2. 20% of the Chinese airspace is loaned to civil airline traffic.
3. At any given time the military stop the loan of the airspace. Therefore stopping civil traffic from flying.
4. Airlines pay huge sums of money to operate in the airspace. That can and is closed frequently.
5. China government is greedy allowing too many aircraft/airlines to operate within the airspace.
6. Why is this considered acceptable?
7. Clear weather days ATC blame weather for the delays!
8. When is enough enough?

Rage against the machine!

The Annual Military Wargaming manoeuvres start August 1st.
Pack your sandwiches.

Not all the delays were caused by the military. Simply they could not handle the busy traffic. Everyday at around mid-night, they would impose heavy flow control on the BEKOL route, eg, 20 min or 30 min flow restriction. They did that because they also had many flights going to Europe. To hold our European flights on the ground was the most effective way to solve the problem. At around 2 or 3 o'clock, the restriction would be cancelled because their European flights would have gone already - easy!

Some operators would flight plan A461 all the way to the North America. Flight plan filed and overfly permit ready, but they would hold you on the ground for hours for no reasons. It was simply crazy. Days ago, an United New York flight was cancelled because the crew had exceeded their duty time.

ZBAA and ZSPD were always the jokes. The built two airports with 3 to 4 runways each but they wouldn't let you go there. What's the point to build an airport with several runways. And they were talking about to build another airport in Beijing.

ZUCK and ZUUU were another mystery. Every evening flights going there had to delay for at least 5 hours. They would only let you to depart after mid-night. By that time, most of their domestic flights had already landed there - problem solved, easy!

If it happens everyday, that's their problem, no excuses.

Don't expect the CAD higher authority can do anything on it. You cannot expect anything from "Yes Men".

Poor flight crew, poor ground staff, poor passengers and poor front line air traffic controllers.

On the bright side, the high speed rail will be completed next year. I am sure you will arrive Beijing or Shanghai well ahead of taking planes.

Just wondering what were you doing in the cockpit during the long wait.

I take some comfort from the fact that most of the passengers are from mainland China. It's their problem, I drink coffee and go home when my day at work is done.

Flow control with "Asian Values".

The Chinese and the North Koreans are like King Canute sitting on his chair at the waters edge at low tide ordering the incoming waters to stop. Technology will enlighten the public in the aforementioned police states and the so-called "Leaders" had better watch out for a huge public backlash.

I have to agree, the delays are getting ridiculous these days

HKIA will be a joke soon. If it isn't already during a drop of rain.

Single Rwy ops for 2 years!!

you must be very happy when the mainland takes over hk.

No argument on the ridiculous delays but I take it your last comment was related to the plan to close the (current) north runway for 2 years, which needs correction.

That will only be done once the 3rd runway and associated taxiways are completed, so that work can be done cutting tunnels thru and reprofiling the Centre (current north) runway, building wrap around taxiways at the ends and finishing the reclamation up to the current North Sea wall. All which couldn't be done while Ops were still underway on that runway.

So, never less than 2 runways until the 3 come online.(night maintenance excepted)

We will have only 2 rwy ops for at least the next 10-12 years. Once the new rwy is open, 25R closes for two years of work, then once that opens, 25L closes for the same process. Who here now thinks that we an survive with only two rwy's for the next 12 years? What a joke. This airport is already busting at the seams. Should have started on a 4 rwy airport south of the island 5 years ago. It's all too late for HK now.:ugh:

I'm not really sure what the point of the 3rd runway is unless there can be two simultaneous arrivals or two simultaneous departures. That seems impossible without a major revamp of the airspace's departure and arrival corridors. It seems to me that the existing two runways are not utilized to capacity now. Whether this is due to airspace issues, poor ATC, or a combination of both is unknown to me.

I do believe that HKIA would be able to move more traffic than it does currently if an ATC team from LHR or the US came in to consult and improve procedures. That said, HKIA has a higher concentration of widebodies (more separation required) than most places and many of the operators have extremely poor English skills. So, ATC's ability to get aircraft to do what they want is lessened. I actually think HK ATC has improved in recent years, but it seems there is more to be done.

Let's not forget the explosion of the Asian low cost carriers.
It seems I see a new one every time I go flying around the region.

There are only so many airports and runways you can build around a major Asian city.

Yet the authorities seem perfectly happy allowing dozens of new carriers adding hundreds of new routes and frequencies to these congested airports with 320s and 737s...

At the end of the day, a 737 carrying 150 pax will clog up an airport just the same as an A380 carrying 500.

LCCs are all good and fun, but at the end of the day, authorities and airports are going to have to recognize the toll they are taking on the ground facilities and airways structure, and start to treat them adequately.

Stop charging carriers by pax or aircraft weight, and start charging them by runway and airway occupancy time... that would be a start.

Indeed.
HK FIR overflights have increased 16% in the past 12 months. About to surpass the 1,000/day mark.

Where to next, with just one Regional LCC having 365 A320/321 neos on order??:eek:

Not sure why you think 25L/07R would close for the same process? :confused:

So not 12 but maybe 6-7 years it seems.

Won't argue with you on the rest tho.

25L/07R certainly could do with being refurbished. This is one of the roughest runways in the region. Reading the instruments starts to get marginal at high speed and the relief of getting the nose wheel in the air to stop the vibration is like christmas every day!!

Being very regular SLF down the back of the 350 I would agree!

I doubt you guys get back that far much but Row 73 makes for some interesting sensations - particularly through the ITCZ! CX treat their Diamond pax well.:rolleyes:

CAAC ATMB Contact us

Damn this might be one of the best things i've read on pprune. Its true for the world isn't it? Technology is going to eventually win. Right now its so easy for us to google so many things. Of course our friends across the boarder are restricted, but for how long? The internet infrastructure right now is ground based, kinda like an ILS, but how much longer before it goes RNAV? How do you block satellite internet? Or maybe a way we haven't even thought of yet. How much longer until we see google as archaic as the library card catalog system? A time where technology meets biology, where we just think about the question and it pops in our heads without the need to for a computer/cell phone search. The "chicken littles" will say that is exactly what they will use to control us, but how well has that worked out so far with the internet? The recent revolutions have been technological related. And mostly peaceful. I for one am really optimistic about the future.

No worries; arty, they got it covered.

Technology wins, google singularity.

Maybe visual approaches and "cowboy RT" are required for more movements without infrastructure and airspace expansion. Having to hold every crews' hands onto ILS final seems a bit archaic to me. We could TCAS follow traffic ahead with decent pointouts and monitored separation, much less a visual sequence which admittedly would be difficult on most days in the HK smog. Of course, low time crews are not helping matters either. If the assertion is that the US ATC is unsafe, please support that with statistics.

Years ago (>6) they hired Aussie/Brit/Umurican rock star controllers in HK. They were all really good. But with the majority of aircraft in and out of the airport being WB or god help em "Supers", ATC just isn't that busy here on the radio. The two minute separation keeps the radio com pretty tame.

As far as cowboy RT, it is often required with one minute separation and 4+ active runways at the same airport. Not a lot of time to talk to each aircraft.

Flying into and out of HKIA is a breeze. Try ORD or ATL in the afternoon bank of arrivals, and then Air India or Air China check in and try to use perfect, slow, ICAO ATC. Then it is time to "cowboy up". Yeah it is not "right". But it is required.

The US ATC system is the most efficient on the planet, bar none. And it accomplishes this exceptionally safely.

It DOES use a multitude of tools to accomplish things including visual approaches, visual separation, slam dunks, fast paced instructions, clipped comm, creative geometry etc (how much have you actually used a holding pattern in the US ?) So if you want to play in the park you need to be up on the game. And realize the world doesn't necessarily revolve around YOU--but solving a puzzle with a whole bunch of airplanes getting in and out of a limited amount of concrete. If you don't do this you risk getting kicked out of the game.

I don't know that even with US 'techniques' it'd help HK all that much due the limited amount of concrete. Maybe some but not as much as some might think. Mainland China for sure.

Guess I'd better be more proactive with my "trucker comm" around Asia; maybe it'll rub off on someone.

How come in light of the delays, business jets with maybe 5-10 pax on board are still allowed into HKIA?
Why not send all biz traffic to macau?

Comms are 'busier' because they insist on vectoring u around a hold or final approach course from limes

Good old Capt X on the latest Dear Gus took all the China delays enroute HKG-LHR, landed with minimum fuel and 52+ minutes duty extension presumably on a 3 man ops. CC must be terrifying them!

Thanks for letting us know UNIFO.

Any chance of "monitor tower" on taxi out, auto change to departure frequency after take off and perhaps as someone else suggested a delivery frequency dedicated to China?

When was the last time there was a mid-air collision when one plane on departure climbed up the a$$ of the plane in front of it?

If the tower controller wants to keep aircraft 'visually' separated on departure he must have extremely good eyesight and distance judgment with parallax error and HK smog all thrown in.

I would guess the helicopter traffic to/from GFS.

Maybe because other airports are not squeezed right up against a line of hills up to about 3000'. Helicopter traffic needs to approach and depart the field in close parallel to the fixed wing tracks

How about auto switch on departure is made standard except when helicopter or whatever traffic is mentioned?

Ie

" Traffic bla bla clear for takeoff bla bla remain this frequency airborne"

Auto switch could probably be used 80+% of the time

Careful CCA, you're starting to make common sense with ideas like those, and we know that doesn't work in Asia. Somebody might have to lose face. Can't have that!!!

I think the worst thing that ATC do is switch us from 123.8 to 119.1 approaching PORPA, just as all hell breaks loose in the cockpit as 5000' is captured (not yet cleared above) etc (although most of the lightning hands have cancelled the restriction and then get flustered!). It would seem more sensible to remain on 123.8 until after PORPA and THEN change frequency.

...and DXB used to have an auto switch. Now they have reverted to individual frequency changes. I presume, that due to some people continuing to auto switch they have added extra R/T in the form "XXX cleared for take off Rwy30R, remain this frequency when airborne". Coupled with the actual freq change this results in lots of extra chat on twr freq.