Direct Entry FO
 

So I see that Cathay is doing direct entry FOs if you have 1000+ airline hours. Does that mean when second officers upgrade they'll keep pushing me down in seniority or is each position independent?

is there resentment then for guys coming in as direct entry FOs?

Is that because people aren't applying or is the program very difficult to get accepted into?

Unofficially the plan is to scrap Adelaide altogether.. direct entry only.

Yes there is resentment, hate, and anger from SO's. You will go to the bottom of the seniority list and keep getting bypasses for rosters, vacation, etc etc. You are stealing our jobs and letting the company get away with cheap labor. DEFOs are part of the problem.

How does it work with bidding aircraft when you get in? I see it's only 330 or 747 cargo. Do they assign it or we can pick? How long are you seat locked to that aircraft? Finally how long is the upgrades ?

Recruitment Ban
 

Let's vote to include a Recruitment Ban
As part of the CC.

Why they hell should folk come here with a big smile and while we wither on the vine.

Who's in?

+1

So.....anyone interested to answer my question?

I don't think you will see any resentment from the Captains, rather a sigh of relief to have an FO who actually has some hands on flying experience.

I've done all kinds of hand flying turboprop flying without an AP and now I'm flying a CRJ 900. So not like I walked out of flight school and got a job like a lot of the SOs. It was just a different path cause we don't have the SO programs here. But if I could get on with Cathay now or wait for a US major that's 6 years away I'd rather get onto my final job now.

Maybe one of the many Yanks who have left Cathay after 10+ years to go to a US major can chime in and give you some insight.

Things are very very different here. And I don't mean that in a good way.

Read this forum. Look at the history.

I wish I could post it's just a bunch of naysayers but that would be a lie.

I have been here 11 years and have been waiting to get a base in the US for 6. If you ever wish to return home you may as well stay and fly for Allegiant or JB for a few years. This was supposed to be my "final job" as well, but each passing day makes me think that will not be the case.

box

Pick the 747, you won't be on it long, a few years max, and then you'll be offered a US base on the 777X possibly A350 but doubtful.

:}

Could you explain yourself a little more for us outsiders?

I turned down an SO interview a few years ago because the salary was too low for me in my personal situation to live in Hong Kong. In fact, the terms I was shown two years ago showed year 1 FO about 10 000HKD less per month than what they are showing now. So can someone please explain how DEFO are cheaper labor than SO?

I find it slightly ironic that an SO can be accusing someone of cheap labor in the first place.

The only reason SO's exist anywhere is for cost reduction???

What's the current upgrade time like out there now?

SO -> JFO 3-4 years

SO/DEFO -> Captain 11-13 years

11 years to command is now. That will slow (is already?) once our ex-A and early "super" B scalers are retired. The unknown variables are airline growth (or contraction) and attrition of those leaving for greener pastures. Hard to predict those.

Also factor the airport's and airspace's capacity at Hong Kong. The Chinese have not changed the airspace for decades and with competition from the growing Hainan Group airlines for slots, my bet is that in a few years expansion will stop. CX will be going nowhere.

In that case, it will be dead men's shoes for commands.

CX will reap what it sows.

On all fleets the CN upgrades are predominately experienced FOs who joined circa 2006-2008 (commands pending). The success rate is and will continue to be high for the next 18mth+. However, many of the JFO upgrades are at present from ex cadets with little or no experience prior to CX, many are struggling. (babysitting the AP anyone?). With training resources dwindling by the month management continue to squander resources, the 150 sector upgrade is on the cards.

Whilst every new joiner doesn't have to be ex Thunderbirds pilots, they should know the basics of stick and rudder, sadly this now seems to be missing.

Yet, like those before you, you will just watch and suck it up!
QUOTE=Natca;9712702]Yes there is resentment, hate, and anger from SO's. You will go to the bottom of the seniority list and keep getting bypasses for rosters, vacation, etc etc. You are stealing our jobs and letting the company get away with cheap labor. DEFOs are part of the problem.[/QUOTE]

Anyone who read their contract before signing it won't have a problem with you joining as a DEFO.

SO's
 

Exactly!!

I suggest all SO shut their gobs. You are nothing more than a wannabe while the rest of uspaid our duesin turbo props, regional jets etc actually doin real flying into busy international airports.

You dont deserve to upgrade over a DEFO with real flight time and experiece. You are the epitome of cheap labour!!

Half the SOs who've joined in past 3-4yrs have an ATPL, years in GA, turbo prop time, regional time, jet time etc and have paid their "dues".

You paint all SOs with the same brush but forget at some point in your career you too were at the bottom.

Well at the end of the day (career), that SO with zero experience will have a much greater return on their investment that those of us who slugged it out making crap wages and risking our lives to land that shiny jet job.

I would suggest those with the experience that allows you to bag on those without, use that flight time to get the hell out of this toxic place.

The way I see it, those SOs are far smarter than any of those who've "paid their dues"

Pointing the finger at them as cheap labor? Who allowed that to happen in the first place?

The stupidity and selfishness of this pilot group amazes me.

Well the trainers I guess?
They are training them aren't they ?

@Luggage, there is a word for people like you that I would be banned by the mods for using. I pity the poor suckers who ever find themselves crewed up with you. You are an extremely ignorant person who assumes that those who are SOs have zero flying skills. You're correct regarding a contingent of locals who joined as cadets however you forget that they have little choice in terms of the experience they are able to build. Hong Kong doesn't really offer the GA/Turboporp opportunities that other regions do. This is their only real opportunity to start their careers in aviation. If you were in their shoes, I think you may find it hard to refuse. Free training, a decent salary and solid career progression from the start. Yes, experience in other areas is extremely valuable and I feel fortunate for the opportunities I have had however they rarely have these opportunities. Secondly, you obviously have no idea about the people working at Cathay. You tar every SO with the same brush. Some SOs joined from other companies where they have extremely valuable experience as training captains on turboprops etc, corporate jet capts and fos, bush pilots etc etc. These guys joined as SOs for varying reasons however I can tell you right now that some took the first job they were offered after their last company went bust or they were made redundant. For most, the priority is to have a salary to feed the family, pay the rent or mortgage, keep the career moving and pay the money back that they fought so hard to save to get their licence in the first place. If you have nothing decent to say, don't say anything at all. If you were a decent person and there are many in aviation (unfortunately there are also people like you), you would know that it is an up hill struggle for most of us trying to maintain a decent career in aviation in order to feed the children and pay the bills. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a 'wannabe', you were one once and everyone deserves a shot!!

No. The trainers are doing the job they signed up to do, not solve the problem of declining conditions.

The pilot group has allowed this attack and many others happen over and over again. And please don't blame the AOA, they only represent the pilot body. And that body has made it very clear that they are willing to do f#%k all to protect their profession.

The big difference being is that they didn't sign up, they volunteered! So yes they are part of the problem..Agree with the rest.

True. And it is also self-evident that every pilot who joined the airline is 'voluntarily' supporting the company through continuing in that position. When the AOA comes out with a complete training ban, then the argument becomes valid, not before.

All valid points. Yes the trainers volunteered.

But I think what it ultimately comes down to is a willingness to stand up to the company 100% unified no matter what the particulars.

Hello!

I was wondering if anybody had information on the DEFO interview, or will be attending in May.

Any information would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers,

April fool ??????

Why would that be an April fools. People are applying and being invited for interviews

No... not April Fools. I'm attending the selection process in May and there seems to be a limited amount of information on the web about the DEFO interview. So I thought maybe somebody here would have a few pointers they could share besides what I've already read for the SO interviews.

Sure, come no over. You will instantly be regarded as someone who is willing to undermine an already aggrieved pilot group. You will find that you have been conned into moving to the most expensive city on earth, with a package that will make you live like a commuter pilot in the USA. You will lose your wife and family if you have one. You will be miserable, lonely, poor and frantic. Other than that, come one in...the water's lovely.

What a load of bollocks.

A RJ puke slinging mud about cheap labour - how ironic.

Correction:

with a package that will make you live worse than a commuter pilot in the USA

FLYINCOLO, You seem keen a and capable guy... In answer to your questions just beware...
- you will be assigned a fleet, there is no bidding at CX.
- once assigned you will likely never leave that fleet UNLESS it suits Cathay to do so. Your desires and lifestyle are not considered. Once again, there is NO bidding at CX.
- even as you upgrade you will be assigned a fleet that is convenient to them to upgrade on. Your seniority means nothing and you will not be allowed to simply defer upgrade to pick a fleet of your choosing (ie. even if you do defer, you will still be assigned the same fleet... Mostly just to teach you a lesson.)
- seat locked? For as long as it suits them.

Note: some fleets have significantly worse lifestyles than others. Hope you don't get one of those on day 1, or that is it. Game over. In the DFO's words 'we don't discriminate on fleet pay hence we can put you on any fleet that suits us - we are not required to obey seniority'... This attitude unfortunately does not take into account lifestyle/roster and/or overtime though.

Additional info: if CX are still spruiking the "you will have a base in 5 years" line be cautious... I have recently flown with SO's that were STILL being told that in their interviews a couple of years ago (as was I 10+ years ago)... Despite the fact there has been no meaningful movement on bases in the last 9 years. When/if the bases did move there will be a lot of pent up demand... And you will be at the very bottom. At CX you can't downgrade to take a base meaning if you have upgraded to Capt you may never get a base (ie. can't downgrade to fill an FO slot).

This info it's just so you know... coming to CX in HK is a long term commitment. It is unlikely you will be taking any base before 7+ years.

It is a very different work place to the USA, Europe or Australia. CX as an employer are pretty much allowed to do what they want, picking or choosing to honor the parts of your contact that suit them.

Good luck with it.