Where to now?
 

So of course the company didn't come back to the table, now we will have DEFO to get around the training ban, longer upgrade times and no more HKPA. Where does this leave us? Simple CC/TB isn't going to do much anymore

Psychopaths. Couldn't agree more.

I agree with C Rod.
Just sit back and enjoy the circus maximus.... watch them running in circles nipping at each others tails seeing which manager can outdo the other and come up with the cheapest (less more expensive) solution (I know CP-T is all excited about this and wants to make his mark :ok:).
In the end, they can direct entry hundreds if they want - where are the trainers to train them??
Enjoy the sights....;)

Spot on. Wish people would stop helping the company with their scaremongering.

Nothing has changed. They are still up against the corner. Don't let minor distractions affect your resolve.

RW36,

So you think adding more load to the training system is going get around the TB, are you really not that bright?

And if you think they weren't coming with a yes vote you're kidding yourself.

As someone else said "due to the lifting of the training ban and to take advantage of it CX will be employing DEFO's"

So nieve

Wait till they let the SOs suitable for the DEFO positions upgrade and then have to offer a better deal to the actual DEFO's to get anyone decent or perhaps they'll go for the not so bright ones.

I'm just curious if the AOA will put out a directive stating eligible SOs should not apply for the DEFO position. Firstly it will be a a lot easier to upgrade an SO already familiar with CX ops than bringing in someone from the outside. Secondly we do not allow Training captains to accept STC and BTC positions so should they allow the same for SOs who will jump the queue and negatively impact those that are close to an upgrade. Finally I understand that they will still be short of trainers but for every SO that has a delayed upgrade they could potentially train 4 DEFO, it is not insignificant

Direct entry Training Captains, anyone?
:}

YM, yup! Or how about, direct entry captains and direct entry training captains? And then to finish it off, 3 months notice to cancel PBPA and direct entry everything AUS, USA, CAN base, anyone? :D

Flex, CP-T already made is mark years ago. Remember? His father too.

catpac, I think the USAOA TA might stop that. Also, messing around with the Yanks, in the current hiring climate, would be a bad idea. So many have quit in the last two years. Those that have stuck it out, are waiting for all of those thing you mentioned. If the company screws them over again there will be no reason to stay at all. All of the U.S. majors are starting to get concerened as to where they will get pilots. One hundred, easy, from this place.

The Vis, I hear you!! However, 100 people leaving from here would indeed be bad news, but dare I say that the management would look at it in a positive way and say to themselves, well we have 100 guys less on housing and expat benefits being replaced by HKPA low cost cheapos... Just like the fuel hedge bet, well we lost a lot, but its good news as fuel is cheap now... :ok:

I'm qualified for the DEFO job, and I wouldn't accept it. You're far from qualified for the DEFO job, yet you'd sell your remaining testicle, and a member of your family for it.

There's a lesson here.

As I see it, DEFO is planned on the Airbus & jumbo (warning:freighter only flying!!)

That means that the 777 FOs will continue to be all be low or zero hour cadets.

Smart move Anna & Dom, clearly experience has become an issue (FOPS mangement's fault), so you urgently need experienced pilots to join. Then you decide to leave the ultra-low experience guys who desperately need sectors on the fleet where they'll get 1 sector a month, and put the high hour pilots on the fleets where they're likely to average 4-6 PF sectors a week.

Brilliant!!!

They'll get sectors?

I saw AT today... Looks like they is under HUGE stress and alone! Stay the course. In fact, the union should tell them they are not interested in talking until our list of demands are met. If the list of demands are met, then we can train their needs at a fraction of the price they are looking at currently. Time is of the essence.... Tick Tock!


The union should run a survey of members and determine all things outstanding with a suitable/reasonable solution agreed by members for each item. IE. HKPA: Should be doubled for all FO's/ Capt with SO's get a 50% increase in current rates until 2 years after probation then Full FO HKPA.( Just speculation)


As for DEFO and the training task ahead. Its like shaving off $10,000 off a $1,000,000 mortgage.... they still need to train all the captains and that system is fixed and with a 40% failure rate... good luck!.... not to mention the last DEFO program was scrapped due to the poor results and the real time to train crews to standard realized.


For those SO's worried about DEFO. Don't!


I was an SO when they did the DEFO hiring last time and thought it would impact my Upgrade but it didn't (with respect to +/- a month). In fact soon after, the actual time to upgrade decreased. So any perceived delay will be negligible. don't buy into the hype! enjoy your lifestyle while it lasts because FO and Captain rosters Suck!


The SO upgrades will still happen especially for airbus via the dragon program.


The other thing to note is the experience wanted (If out there and willing), will likely not come due having family etc due HKPA being a struggle as its widely publicized on this forum. Perfect storm really!


Stay the course.... Don't stress.... do your job.... enjoy your days off..... let them fix their own problems...... the longer this takes the more money it costs them.... They have thrown away the best resource they have after years of breach of trust and erosion to your COS and Benefits. We are finally pushing back and we owe it to the future generations to cling to the past!


;)

Although psychopaths seems like a reasonable definition of the upper echelon of this company, I have always preferred sociopath.

so·ci·o·path
ˈsōsēōˌpaTH/
noun
noun: sociopath; plural noun: sociopaths

1. a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

The only people that seem to be able to climb the ranks in this empire have a callous disregard for the well being of everyone they manage. They see us merely as line items on a spreadsheet rather than people with families who want to be treated fairly with respect.

Nothing will change under the current ownership/management, they don't know any other way. They have been low-lifes since the opium trading days and nothing has changed.

Dilbert68 - psycho
 

Sorry Dilbert, I must disagree with you and your description of the "upper echelon". While I don't want to boast about my psychological prowess, I know a friend of a friend whome I have discussed this topic with in depth and I think it's time to get more clarity on the subject.
While I do concur with the "lack of conscience" part of the sociopath diagnosis, my friend of a friend clearly indicates that a more clinically correct diagnosis, in particular however not exclusive to the non-Swire managers, would be "a Sycophant with Sociopathic tendencies".

Sycophant - "a self-seeking, servile flatterer; fawning parasite" (Dictionary.com)

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