KA training CX pilots
 

If so, then I would kindly ask that no KA pilot request a js from me. Thank you.

Simply the best way to drive a wedge between CX & KA pilots & ensure they have no support for us.

Great idea!

Ummmm, I think the wedge would be KA training our FO/SO's....don't you think?

Simple
 

All the AOA has to do is ask the DPA to say no.

KA has well over 80 percent membership. Nobody here wants the hassle of training your crews.

But if the two associations dont come to an agreement then it puts our TC on the spot. How are they supposed to refuse to train on the basis of a CX ban that some of your own people dont respect.

Yes I can agree with that. All I am asking is that a formal request is made so that it becomes DPA/AOA policy.

Once that happens people will act in a unified fashion rather than leaving it up to individual discretion whereby some will some wont.

As it stands the AOA has a ban but the DPA does not. Acting outside of the DPA current policy leaves people exposed. Once it has the "force" of policy behind it then KA pilots are in a postion to support you.

That's quite threatening, strange way of asking something mngmt.

So for staff travel we're different airlines but for training is same group: Ka has to play by CX rules, what's the reasoning behind this?

My recent JS requests on CX flights didn't get answered and talking to other KA crews, I'm not the only one; In the meantime I kept on accepting JS from CX crews.

I'm not a trainer and I am not responsible for what our management will decide: I see no reason why you should retaliate on me or my fellow colleagues for that.

Two way street regarding jump seats. A while ago I was awarded J1 on a KA flight during Chinese new year, requested as soon as roster came out. Forgot about it as had a confirmed seat pretty much, one week to go J2, by the time the day of the flight I was J4. No seats on other carriers even at full fare. I am not the only one at CX who has received this kind of treatment from KA captains.

At least your request was not answered so you had time to make other plans.


If KA do not refuse or implement a training ban of their own over this you also lose a lot of power WRT implementing a training ban in the future. CX is much bigger with, in the future, far more training capacity than KA. You will never be able to use this as an industrial tool if training just gets shipped over to CX, your 330 fleet seems to be expanding.

SJ, on behalf of the rest of the KA skippers I apologize for your J1 to J4 deterioration. That's amateurish, unprofessional and infantile behavior by whomever it was. When someone is provided with J1 they bloody rely on it and it's very frustrating to have it changed. I had the same thing happen to me recently on CX. Was very kindly given J2 for a return flight to HK (which can be relied upon at outports) and a week before travel changed to J3. Then on the day of travel I happened to check it again and discovered it was now J4. Caused a bit of panicking 'plan C' action. If a captain chooses to save J1 and J2 for his own colleagues I fully understand but if he's allocated J1 and J2 I think it's poor form to screw with the applicant who's now got a travel insurance policy in place.

KA versus CX
 

Please, please, do not fall in to the trap of entering a KA versus CX war. That is exactly what the management would love to see. Let's endeavour to find out ways to bond our two unions together and face the common enemy.

As a CX captain I will always give a KA flight crew the utmost respect and priority when it comes to jumpseat requests. If we can't see beyond this then we deserve to be treated as a bunch of whining morons.

Sooner or later, all local S/Os will be seconded to KA before JFO upgrade.

I'm over at the boat shed. I recently had to make a short notice trip.
I can't thank the CX Skipper, and all the crew, enough as they did everything they could to get me on the flight.

Bill and all you other KA brothers,
If I give you J1 then it will always remain J1 and anyone who does otherwise should realise that is the way it has always been done here however we have some youngn's residing in the LHS yet versed on etiquette - apologies.
FW

Jumpseats
 

I have had good and bad experiences with KA jumpseats. But I try to operate under the 'pay it forward' principle. Whilst I might only need a KA jumpseat once a year, I know there are a few KA commuters that need(want) jumpseats from my Australian based port.

It would be very easy to withdraw the goodwill KA and CX pilots usually have for each other over the training issue. But for those that haven't been here for two decades, ask your older colleagues about how we trained our own ASL replacements in the late 1990s.

If we can't prevent our own pilots from training our replacements, on what moral basis can we expect another part of our airline(KA) to do our dirty work for us? I know of at least four of our own who have decided their need for 10% more in silver is greater than their need to feel like they have any friends in CX!

Refuse duty?
 

No one in KA wants to train CX pilots, we all know what a can of worms that will open up. If at the end of the day day we are told to train them then I don't know what "mole" is expecting of us. Refuse the duty?
In CX you are only refusing to volunteer for training, you are not refusing to train people.
Please remember that we are all on the same side!

Nobody, including me, wants to draw a wedge between the two pilot groups. However, CX management will try to use one group against the other. Most of us here are sacrificing to try and effect change with the management. If KA pilots can train CX pilots, and there is no 'cost' to doing so, then most of them will rationalise their decision and do the training. They will then undermine the effort and sacrifice of the thousands of pilots here at CX. I politely stated that if they start training, then I cannot accept keeping the status quo vis-a-vis jumpseats. I have happily given KA pilots J1 for the past several years. I will not continue to do so if they are acting in a way that undermines the most serious effort in years to change the direction of our company. I'm sorry it may come to that, but I have no other way of expressing my opposition to what I will see as harming my best interests. I would hope that the reality of a change in the js availability would be something that the KA pilots could use to their benefit in dealing with their own management. If it is important enough, then you can put the pressure on your management, just as you have successfully done with other issues of concern to your group. And GMDX, if that is the case, then at least your union can also institute a training ban, and no new trainers. That would do more than anything else to convince the CX group that we are all on the same page.

Curtain, you make a good point. Ultimately all pilots involved, CX and KA, will need to go to extra lengths to keep solidarity. Hopefully KA pilots will not undermine what little leverage we currently have in effecting a positive change.

KA Trainers do not have a choice.
It will show up on the roster - check mate - they can choose between Sick/MD/getting fired.
We will possibly see direct entry F/O's on bases for punishment.
Possibly a joint Seniority list.A few freighter aircraft being move away. Endless possibilities. All blamed on the AOA.

It's extremely naive to think a little training ban can push a multi-billion company over.

If Ivan can smile about billions of fuel hedging losses in 2015 and the next 3-4 years
without getting fired, he won't mind to kick a few expat bus drivers out and replace with some ecstatic young blood.

Rod would be wise to accept the latest offer by vote and negotiate later.
Don't leave money on the table.
Or accept the great legacy, the man who accelerated the demise.....

Btw, a big congratulation to all of you. Nothing has improved since the training ban.
Things got worse and will get even worse....

C'mon leave then, haha.Built your sand castles in Meidan.
Cx attrition rate is one of the smallest of any major carrier.
It's crystal clear you have been outsmarted.....

Enjoy your Sunday while I look after my private business....

Good read for rainy Sundays - "who moved my cheese".

What really cracks me up: Active trainers being pro training ban......
Hey but but but but I have children...i need the money....I,I,I,I I am just a slave executing my rosters.....I love to fly......I love DB, TC.....

KA can only train A330 pilots no, as that is the only common fleet type. Secondly, sending S/Os to KA is a good idea I would think as far as experience goes. If guys/gals do not want to do it they'll either not apply or quit. Now I also think we should have a possible swap program with an integrated seniority list. If I want to fly A320 to Chila, why not. And of course vice versa.

The way around all this training issue is simple, quit check and training on both sides. As someone mentioned the ASL thing, people in check and training NOW are training their replacements and their colleagues. We have 49ers AND Paris refugees in check and training now. Get your heads around that!

I would not take this out on the KA folks. They were screwed over hard when we took the freighter operation and now we want their help? I would tell us to go to hell as well and in fact we can still fix the injustice by placing those guys on the list where they belong. A show of good will might get the KA guys/gals onside.

MOLE

What an inflammatory and patronising post!!!


Could I please ask, with all due respect that you please PM me with your name, so that I can avoid having a Knob like you on the J/S.

Many thanks

Fx

PS. perhaps we delay have this discussion,at least until the topic is proposed.

As inflammatory as KA trainers possibly undermining the efforts of 3000 CX pilots who are fighting to obtain reasonable working conditions? Ok, whatever you say. I'm with Mole on this. You can't expect sympathy and support if you are working against your 'sister' airline pilot group. Not quite sure why the indignation against what he said. Didn't seem an unreasonable position to express.

CX management would love to have both groups fighting each other. Having said that, it is worth KA pilots being aware there is a real cost to blindly being used as a tool to undermine the ongoing efforts of the CX pilot group.

DPA better demand that KA F/Os sit on the jumpseat as safety pilot on full credit or they can watch their monthly pay take a nosedive while the CX boys and girls operate all their sectors!!!

KA trainers themselves are not undermining our efforts. They are being told to train CX pilots. It's that simple. Its management doing the undermining.

As CX pilots, I'll have an issue with those KA trainers if they train our pilots after our trainers stop training our pilots, our pilots stop flying….I stop flying. Until we do that, then you simply cannot expect pilots to not do the job they are employed to do. Isn't that called Contract Compliance, just doing your job.

Few questions for the smart people out there:

Is it even legal, immigration-wise, for a cx pilot to be trained in KA? (I remember there being a little note in my visa that said I could only work for CPA)
Isn't the Cx pilot under training at KA technically working under KA cos during training?
What happens if a trainee cocks something up, is he/she in trouble with CX or KA?
D&g procedure? What role can the AOA have when a pilot is working on the other side of the fence?

Cx, with their great organizational skills, have undoubtedly thought of every potential problem and figured out a way to deal with it.(/s)

Can a trainee refuse flying an aircraft with a different AOC?

Sounds to me there are a lot of potential issues with this 'solution', maybe the company is just trying to shake the tree, and waiting to see what falls out?

Ps.
KA are our brothers, sooner or later we will be working for the same company.
The way we will merge will largely depend on how well the two unions work together in a time like this. No doubt there will be an effort to try to divide us.

Psps.
You can't expect KA to fight our battles for us. We still have our own trainers that can resign from training, before we can ask KA trainers for any favors.

pspsps.
KA, you can be on my JS anytime ;-)

Its not an issue legally
 

A Dragonair cadet course DA9all flew with CX for several years before returning to KA.

Yes, but was he a local cadet, not bound by the limitations of the visa?

Why hasn't the HKAOA gotten together with the DPA regarding this and any other potential issues to gain solidarity?

There must be leadership to the rank and file pilots from both associations before any action is taken by individuals. Until the two associations lead their respective groups, expect more individual actions that solve nothing and play right into management hands.

Until then, the only thing jumpseat wars do is hurt pilots.

Its easy, if this happens then ill be the first one to vote to staple KA pilots when SLI happens

Legality
 

CX did the KA pilots L1011 training and they flew CX routes.
So I guess it''s been done before.

Doesn't CX say they need to hire "expats" (on local terms I might add) because they cant get enough locals???

Yet they are giving them to KA so apparently CX has too many perhaps all these legality flags should be raised where possible.