Air Asia report
 

Crew blamed for AirAsia crash: Investigators

Sounds like a combination of wrong procedures by the captain and inexperienced FO.

Real pity as neither of the two factors should cause a crash.

Funny how the headline doesn't make a big deal about the "repetitive maintenance issue" with "23 problems in the last 12 months"

Repetitive low cost maintenance indeed. Hopefully this report will help bring about the death of the Low Cost model.

Just another crew crashing a plane because the automation isn't working - for whatever reason. This is the real problem.

Agreed. A perfectly serviceable plane with a small problem crashes because one guy is mucking around with some circuit breakers and the other bloke couldn't keep it straight and level without an autopilot.
Not the first one of these and will not be the last.

For comparison of scale. 32,000 people die a year on Indonesian roads, shutting down the LCC model and forcing people back on to overnight buses & ferries would be a disgraceful reaction by Indonesian authorities

All valid points

But isn't it a sad reflection of today's aviation world when the acceptable level of pilot training has been reduced to such a low standard that a crew can't operate basic stick and rudder to maintain an otherwise serviceable aircraft in the cruise without stalling and taking a 32,000 ft dive into the ocean

The blame for this can be directly attributed to the bean counters who fail to see any obvious return for the costs involved in crew training so it simply isn't done

Talk about the Swiss cheese model , unacceptable maintenance standards coupled with inept, undertrained crew and tragically we are seeing the result.

Harsh truths about crash of AirAsia QZ8501 | Plane Talking

b.

They will just drop the prices and all the punters will flock to buy a ticket.
This is a failure a greedy management culture. It infects the world airlines. We too at CX have the same desease.

Enough said...

I flew with an Indonesian who had a fresh CPL. He couldn't keep with 300 feet of assigned altitude or even 30 degrees of heading. I suggested he bug the heading and he had no idea what I was talking about. I showed him and he said he had never used it.

The mantra that group decisions are better than those of individuals is not true when you cast your 'vote' on the joystick of an Airbus. This crash highlights, as did AF447, that the lack of back drive to the other pilot's joystick is a critical failure in the Airbus design. The 23,500 hr PIC of AirAsia made some forward stick attempts at recovery; however, they were defeated by the aft stick input of the stricken SIC. The Priority button is only any use if you are aware in the first place that the other pilot is making stick inputs. Difficult to visually monitor what the other pilot is doing when you are plummeting earthwards at 40degree alpha and 12,000 fpm.

Bollocks
 

With all due respect 744drv, you don't really know what you are talking about.


I agree that it would be nice to have back drive on the sticks (as the C-17 has), but it is very, very clear in an Airbus cockpit when both sticks are moved. You can't not know that both sticks are in use. The priority button does work and you can lock the other stick out. In a 'normal' cockpit you can also say 'I have control' and get the required reaction.

AF447 was been flown by cadet pilots and Air Asia a couple of idiots - but the poor bastards were the product of the training they receive under the watching eye of the regulator, as we all are.

The real blame is with the management, company owners and the regulator. The aeroplane was not at fault.

I totally agree.

Yet another "blame the crew" instead of addressing the root problem.

Somebody order more body bags, please.

Unless a rudder hard over can be definitively attributable as the cause of the accident which it hasn't been . The only logical conclusion is crew error .
Much that I hate to pass judgement on fellow pilots , it would appear that a total lack of basic flying skills resulted in the loss of a serviceable aircraft.
Quite how a 23,000 hour Capt allowed an un-commanded climb by the FO from FL 320 to finally stall at FL 380 instead of flying straight and level is beyond comprehension . Side stick or not . " I have control " should suffice ,

So yes the lack of basic stick and rudder skills by the Younger generation of pilots is coming home to roost and I fear that this will not be the last time this sort of thing happens
Just as a matter of interest , how many of our SOs actually get to hand fly the aircraft in cruise under the Capts supervision ? Or do we rely on the fact that although very unlikely ,the first time he may be called upon to do this could well be when the Capt or Relief Pilot are off the flight deck for a bathroom break .

Controlled Rest, I do understand.

It is not about whether you know that the other pilot is playing with the stick it is about knowing which corner he has parked it in.

The red button plainly does not work in the heat of the moment in TWO crashes now. In both cases two pilots were "flying" the aircraft simultaneously. I know there are big arrows and loud audio, but there is also a stall warner, ECAM warnings, a lot of "what is it doing now" confusion and human startle factor. In the Air Asia crash the red button was pressed twice but for only short periods .... so it was effectively useless in this scenario with these two pilots. It was also useless in AF447 as it was not used at all. Have there been any examples from the cruise where it has been used successfully? I rest my case.

Oriental, I know the report did not say this, but the way I assumed the initial situation developed was that PIC was out of his seat and SIC was head twisted round trying to confirm circuit breakers. The report said there was inaudible talking prior to CB pulling. Additionally, BEA in their correction suggestions wanted to add the sound of the seat being moved. They felt there was evidence from the CVR that seats were being moved around. From AP disconnect it then took 9 seconds for SIC to make a control input, he was obviously very disorientated / confused and while correcting the large roll attitude also added a handful of backstick. Correcting such a large roll displacement was probably something he had never done before in an Airbus.

wanabee777

The root problem is that we have some "pilots" in the cockpit who should NOT be there, nothing to do with Airbus. If you cannot fly straight and level with the PFD fully functional then get out of the cockpit.

747drv

Sorry but you are sadly wrong with your assumptions.

I believe that either pilot, if left alone, could have easily recovered from the upset while in Alternate Law. The root cause of this accident is that we have aircraft with a flawed dual flight control system.

Does anyone remember the Hoot Gibson TWA 727 upset and recovery?

Allegedly, also the result of dubbing around with circuit breakers.

In what way Iceman?