Relief and the W crew
 

So your a relief pilot RQ or your an S/O and your getting a shafting on your rest , take a look at there roster and see if they are on W pattern roster , don't accept it ! just say no thats not acceptable or pick up the ph and take matters into your own hands.Just because they choose to commute and bypass normal rest requirements doesn't make it ok for them to shaft you, stick up for yourself and or report abuse ......
:=

Do what your captain tells you. Plenty of short-haul jobs out there.

PLEASE tell me you're extracting the urine! :ugh:

The Captain gets what he wants and the Relief Commander has to fit in.
The operating FO gets what he wants and the SO has to fit in.
( they don't have to do the same rest cycle )

After all the Relief crew are exactly that, RELIEF for the operating crew.

As long as the Captain and operating FO let their counterparts know beforehand then I see no problems.

Surely there must be a usual pattern of rest/work known to most crews on certain patterns by now???

Nothing stopping you emailing or calling the Captain and asking.......

As for W commuters?? It doesn't come into my consideration, all crew members are responsible to turn up for work adequately rested...so if they are a little more fatigued then its their problem and should not disadvantage other crew rest.....

In other words, if you can't handle W patterns then DON'T DO THEM. :ok:

I agree with the others. Goathead it doesn't matter if the other members are on Ws or not. as operating crew they get to pick the rest they want, as an SO or Relief FO your job do what's left. Its nice to know in advance but as relief you have to assume the worst rest. Its always been that way and always will, that's the job description. its even in the title "Relief Pilot"

Im relief and have been for too many years to count. I'm also on Ws and have been since joining, I for one never complain about whether the CPT takes the best rest or not, even if its my sector, hes the one that's name is on the CFP.

Flying with commuting guys can be great especially if they are on a different time zone from you. While commuting I was always offering to do the late night stuff as it was the same as an early morning for me, worked a charm.

If you don't like being Relief then request going onto the 330 or get a job flying 737s or 320s. If your an SO then you need a big attitude adjustment as your job is there to do the late night stuff, its not like your roster doesn't allow plenty of time to prepare for the duty!

goathead, is English your first language?

Let me put it another way then ....
Is it ok to shaft a relief crew member both ways so he/she works back of the clock both ways so you as W pattern commuter get the best rest to get back home, outside of the base your employed at whilst for example a HK based crew member does all the hard yards so you can achieve that , p##s off!

The majority of all W pattern crew are only interested in themselves and not the whole crew.....sure it does work out sometimes , probably quite alot, but....
the next time I am asked to work both ways back O the clock for a W pattern Capt whose commuting I'm going to tell him where to go...or call it in.
:ok:

What does that have to do with his post?

Yes, he made a mistake that should get him fined by the "Spelling Police", but so did you.

Erm.. where? If you are referring to the lower-case start of the sentence, that is how he spells his nom-de-guerre.

A semi-literate post like that on a very widely-read internet forum doesn't help his credibility as an airline pilot, or advance his cause.

Captain Dart
I'm so very sorry , but you see I'm very tired as I've just done both ways for an aforementioned capt.Please don't crucify me in my next training report , ill accept a 2 I'm sure you hand them out regularly..

Don't worry, I don't train for them. Maybe a career with a short-haul airline may be a better option for you.

I presume that you have submitted an ASR-F?

Goathead harden up!
 

Did you get called out for the last trip Goathead?
If you did and feel you are not rested for relief/so duties-
take matters in your own hands and go unfit for duty.

If it is a rostered trip then you have a problem.
How about you bid regional flying ! I assume you are on the Tripler.
Should be no problems.
If computer bidding ever comes in I'm sure you will accommodated
with a special bid selection just for you.
9:00 am sign on and home for dinner type rosters!

In the mean time have a big spoon of CEMENT and harden up!
O yes a long look in the mirror might also do the trick :eek:

Good luck calling the 3rd floor re how a CPT organises his rest, I feel you will be the one going for a visit and explaining why you are not doing your job. You are there to make sure the cpt is rested for the arrival. If he's on a different time zone that's your bad luck.

I would love to be a fly on the wall when they tear you a new one!

The "shaft the relief crew" does seem to be a CX thing. Rest plan is generally a PF job along with even distribution of rest amongst all front end crew.

I can't believe what I am reading from the Goat

If I am his captain and he wants to phone the Fleet Office because I didn't give him the rest he wanted, I would lend him my phone and dial the number for him. Actually i would piggyback him up there. Then sit back and watch as he is told to do the job the company is paying him to do or p**s off.

Must be Y generation

Can I just ask a question, what is a W pattern? I have never really heard that term, or perhaps I have under a different term.

Goathead. If you are an ESL pilot please ignore this post.

If you are not... please go back to school and complete your 8th grade english before posting again.

Holy S#%t!! :confused::confused::confused:

Goatherder
My dear chap, whilst I think this is most likely a wind-up, if not, I think you are simply having trouble understanding the difference between knowing your ****, and knowing you're ****. You certainly do not know the former.

As for rest, I allocate it as required to ensure the FO and myself are in decent condition for the approach. If it's an even split, good for you. If it's not and you work more than the others, get your big boy pants on and suck it up!
I don't allocate rest to be selfish, it's simply to ensure the pax and aircraft arrive as safely as possible.
If you can't see that, you're in the wrong job princess!

And while you're at it, keep in mind that their costs are kept low by ensuring they're keeping non-rated SOs on Long-Haul flights who, to be brutally honest, are equally good at not touching anything and logging fuel checks regardless of what state of alert they may be in.

They're not there for their skills, experience or critical surveillance I'm afraid.

Goat- you're an ass
 

You merely come across as a whining, disaffected FO on what is clearly the optimal fleet in the company as it is today.

With no intent to incite an Airbus VS Boeing war, I think most would agree that the 777 roster is about the best one can get in this job right now.

In 12 months of constant night flying I have not had bunk rest once, not once. I "rest" to the unmelodic clip clop bang clop clop clip of cabin crew heels banging the floor.

We too fly long hours, against the clock; if we get 2:40 rest we are lucky.

Very often it is multiple night sectors, total duty equalling (or close) that of 1 long haul sector, half of which YOU are in a segregated bunk for; fuming at your ****ty rest, the other half bitching to your offsider.

Want to know what crappy rosters and rest is like, come to the bus.

And don't ever question the Capt rest decisions. Be grateful you're getting some.

He/she has more to think about than your personal situation.

Don't like it....go elsewhere.

Dope

goathead, you are lucky they replaced the rock hard clipboard with the new flimsy POS version....As the RQ, if you are witching and moaning about how you are being screwed on rest and why I am giving more bunk time for the operating crew, I would of slap you awake with it right away! :rolleyes:

Monster..hear hear. As an ex Bus driver, I always strived to be both fair and equitable, often giving the better rest periods to the relief just to keep the show on the road..I guess it meant for a more harmonious night out into ultra longhaul land. The noise box behind the cockpit in the 340 is nothing short of crap. It is noisy, with little if no sound proofing..and I thought it was only Mongolians who used carpets on walls..and the CC work with little regard to mindful noise control...this stacks up to the Capt getting rest that is substandard and worse than the guy who hits the LCRM. Goat..fess up. You are a prize **** my friend. This prima D approach will earn you no points and lets face it..respect the skipper..he or she has little left in the gammit of Captain's authority...and God help us, if you ever get into the LHS for the purpose of long haul flying, you may even appreciate it yourself. Just count yourself lucky that you are resting in an environment that IS fit for purpose. That said..just reflect on the principle reasons YOU are there in the first place. It's to provide for a crew proportion that allows the aircraft to arrive efficiently and safely at destination. If there is risk of diversion, be prepared to take an extra hammering on rest..I for one have stretched it out for those who fly the approach, the potential GA in atrocious weather and a low fuel recovery to an unfamiliar alternate...half time pen pushing doesn't really hold argument. As the comrades have said..MTFU!!!

Relief and the W crew
 

This is hilarious! Thanks for the good chuckle guys!

"...some do W's to...save their marriage,...." Hahaha, destroy it more likely!

I do feel the issues that the goat has stuck his head above the parapet for, are relevant though.

The "W" pattern has always been dubious when viewed from flight safety angle. 2nd pattern for these guys paired together is normally a bit of a zombie led train ride.

Rostering wise, I think the goat is more questioning why the compact rosters are normally only available to the senior FO's, but as a result they get shafted on the rest etc. perhaps some more ammunition for the RP negotiations? How about a proper FIFO type roster?

Can we please lighten up on the vitriol and view this like adults?

Thanks Farman
It's just happened a little too regularly for me lately , all at the expense of a W pattern chap, I am always accommodating just getting a little sick of the same type doing the same thing.....I like to note non W pattern Capts are far more flexible, that was my point.
The ph in call wasn't to the fleet office...
Maybe I need to HTFU so someone can commute a little easier.....

Yes, HTFU.
Please tell me your not rested for such duty prior to doors closed, I'll show you the way to L1. If you can't do the job stay at home and submit an F-ASR.
LOL

W Patterns CAN be fine
 

Having done the W Pattern commute a while back, here is my take. If you elect for whatever reason to do it, it IS entirely possible to be rested for all 4 flights. What is NOT (usually) possible is to have a full on life at BOTH ends of the patterns and still be OK. I tried to do this initially and there was a price to pay in terms of performance. Whilst it is wrong of those who say outright "W's are a safety issue", it does behove those who exercise this opportunity to strike a balance. It's referred to as a "lifestyle" roster which allows you to achieve an out of work lifestyle, so some sacrifice somewhere else may have to be accepted. I NEVER expected any favours, (although got a lot - especially I must say from my American friends).

Goat: I simply don't believe that you suffer any more, (what you perceive to be), 'Rest Injustice' from commuting Capt's to non-commuters. Both flavors can make demands you may not 'feel' equitable, both groups have the odd selfish guy. In my experience most commuters are very aware of fatigue as they have to deal with it more. And finally - MTFU! :ok:

Dan buster, the silk pajama mob are almost long gone thank god , does that make it ok does it?

normally everyones pretty bl##dy good , just a few who abuse there W pattern existence.

White none
quote, In my experience most commuters are very aware of fatigue as they have to deal with it more' , exactly , they have to deal with it more by using the relief crew for such...

And you didn't read my post....

I did try to be evenhanded about the reality of it, believe I made it clear that my dealing with it was done outside of the aircraft so I could be at least as fresh as the out and back guys. Guess the "MTFU" ending was a low blow but that's life so MTFU :ok:

Whitenon.. Spot on..most of the Skippers who start the W patterns probably do try and set their hair alight down route and in the squidge of min time off in HKG but most if not all will eventually respect the hardships of the W and better manage the pragmatics of the sectors home. to be fair Goat..and to be equally fair on those who share the same small cubicles with you..if you can't hack the rest periods, just send in the ASR...we all know its not ideal, probably unsafe as well, under the legal definitions on offer from the HSE..as are split duties etc..but as we have all said..under the auspice of MTFU..nobody press ganged you into this job and if its not for you, check out Fly Dubai, Easy Jet or Jetstar..live the bunk free life and give the boys a break!!!

So who's doing what???
 

Everyone needs to MTFU here. Who are the good guys, who are the bad guys? What makes it good/bad? If you suggest better ways to deal with or organise rest then please, let's hear it. Some of the aforementioned 330 drivers would love to hear suggestions on how to improve the (so-called) rest that's able to be achieved to and from Oz.
Here's a start...
Some skippers ALWAYS take middle rest. Others ALWAYS give PF the choice.
Wrong? Right? Fair? Unfair?
ULH guys, do you want it split half and half? 4/5/2?
Do people always send/receive emails prior to duty with rest info?
Instead of complaining, constructively criticise...

I feel this should go without saying but if you're a CN or an FO who will be switching off with an FO/SO who is not based in the same place as you, then you should let them know if you intend to rest at a "strange" time. For example, if you're LAX based and you want to work first out of LA on the midnight departure for whatever reason, that's cool. I'll enjoy my time in LA during daylight hours and be ready to sleep first. If you say nothing until sign-on, then I'll be ready to work first and toss and turn in the bunk until you decide you're tired at which point I'll headbob for the final 6 hours of the sector. Just doesn't seem very nice to leave guys in the dark if your body clock is somewhere vastly different than you're home base, whatever the reason.

From my perspective, it is very appreciated to receive a heads up from the CN regarding rest.

I am a commuter to HKG and as such it is easy for me fly through the night if I stay on my home time instead of moving over to Hong Kong time. I always try to give whoever I'm trading rest with a heads up and offer to let them sleep through the night because that often works best for everyone. If I'm with based guys, however, I am always prepared to work on HKG time because that is my base. Being a commuter isn't an excuse for that, in my opinion.

Am I out of line in my way of thinking? :confused: