Whatever.....

I have seen what piss poor planning can lead to though.

On a trip to SFO, I was the FO, the relief was called from reserve, the capt was training the SO.

Half way across the pacific, I got the SFO weather. Then a couple of hours later I got more. The relief was curious why I was so interested in SFO, he thought we were going to LAX!

This could all have been mitigated against by a professional briefing from the Capt, who was PF, it being a -400!

Many here argue that the company is in a race to the bottom, there is no reason why we should follow them.

Max,

Let me see if I have this right. I need to brief the destination and call sign (among other things) in case I come across an unprofessional pilot who cannot bother to retrieve this info from the paperwork on his own. Now that is covering for the lowest common denominator.

I think briefings are meant to cover anything dumb, different, or potentially dangerous. Flying 872 to SFO with standard ERAs, alternates, wx, and notams does not qualify. I'm sure the RQ had plenty of opportunity to figure everything out by the time he was responsible for any decision making. If he chose not to, that is another (far worse) problem altogether.

First of all...

DessertRat - did you mean for your name to sound like a trash bin vermin at a cake factory?

For the rest, it's not about making a meal out of the briefing, as with everything in aviation, there is a need to be professional. Surely we all want to set the right impression. As I said in an earlier post, it takes 15 seconds longer than the usual. I'll draw your attention to Ops Pt A 8.1.11, that says it all really.

If you are an SO/FO, it matters... if you are a captain and don't agree, you are beyond redemption.

I'm running for cover now.

Remember, the first rule of military aviation applies here just as appropriately...

'It's better to look good than be good!'

Anyway, what about DEFOs? I hope not.

Max, its otherwise known as bull**** baffles brains!
I agree, DEFOs are dead until they are in a corner with no alternative and it becomes expedient.

Max,

If the Relief thought he was going to LAX when he was really going to SFO and he was NOT PF, how would his actions (if he actually had to take any) have been different? If he had been retrieving LAX weather (like some idiots do just after takeoff from HKG, and, all the way across the pond, every hour, like it were going to make a difference in the flight) and it was terrible (possibly requiring a diversion) he'd have been thinking about going to SFO anyway!

I know relief guys who don't even LOOK at the paperwork and would be perfectly capable of doing their job properly and safely if and when the sh*t hit the fan.

It's not a f****n' lunar mission!

Fond memories back in 2000 of ND telling me how incredible the exRAF ASL chaps were and how they could all be DEC.

This is without doubt the best thread creep I have ever seen on PPRUNE.

It's all Ryanair's fault.

Never heard that before.
Actor.............

Doesn't that sort of back up Max's point though? For example, what are the standard notams for SFO?

STP

Stillalbatross,

You appear to have an issue with ex military guys. I flew with most of the ASL captains back then and I can only remember two real idiots. One from an all civilian background and the other fom the RAF. All the other ex RAF guys were just fine. And still great guys to fly with today. But then again, they had done the job before in the left seat. It's not rocket science after all.


Just out of interest, which Air Force turned you down all those years ago?

Thread creep continues...

Lowe, never bothered with the military, marching's not for me. No doubt you also feel the need to run around telling everyone how wonderful you are? Seems there are plenty of exGA guys doing a fine job in CX, why **** on them?

I think you need to re read your post and then mine.

Never questioned the GA guys at all. Both career paths have provided CX with perfectly adequate pilots over the years. Simply tried to question your obvious issue with ex RAF pilots from your post on 5th June. Seen this envy/issue many times over the years. Just relax.

Suspect I touched a nerve though.

PS: Never said I was ex military.

Stillalbatross,
If you had considered the military you would have learnt that pilots in Nato Air Forces are all officers and yes there would have been a little bit if drill (marching to you) during Officer Training but not much. The end goal of flying some of the worlds best and most demanding equipment in the most demanding environment would have compensated for any of the pain one endured at the beginning. You will never experience the pride of marching in front of the monarch at your graduation, or the satisfaction of getting a bomb on target from low level at night in cloud or the feeling of the burners light up. Then again, most of us enjoyed the discipline and esprit de corps that came with it.

Don't argue that dropping bombs has nothing to do with flying passengers around... it's the attitude and discipline that comes with being a professional aviator, no matter what your flying background.

Ah, DISCIPLINE, there is a quality found in very few of our new pilots. You will argue, I know, but trust me you sound just like the type I am talking about!

cxorcist, oval 3 holer et al.... You talk about lowest common denomiators, you talk yourselves into it.

This is not rocket science and neither is it a bombing mission but surely the customers deserve we make no less effort than that type of job. There is only one way to fly and that is at 100% all the time.

If you don't like it.....

Max Reheat

Spot on. Couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you.

Now of course, this will start an even more heated debate which will result in Cathay pilots doing what they do best.....turn on each other. Willy waving galore.

Meanwhile our careers erode further while we're busy bickering like children.

As they say, "never mind the ball, lets get on with the game".

I'm off to practice my goose steps. Oops, I mean quick march. ;)

:yuk:
It's people who experience pride marching in front of a monarch that make CX the 19th-Century colonial anachronism it is. How about moving your thought and behaviour patterns into the 21st Century?
:yuk:

................We just crushed!!!!!!!!!!
The CX pilot group were focused on a light bulb, lost sight of the real issue and hit the ground.No one survived.
Oh man of great wisdom and ego but little common sense, professing to wise they became fools.......
Please learn and apply CRM. We all need it.

Max,

How quickly you go from talking about the importance of briefing items which are self evident in the paperwork to calling those who disagree about briefing them unprofessional or becoming the lowest common denominator. I am one of the few pilots of those I have flown with who looks at real time weather and the paper notams on possible divert airfields as we approach them. That is because I probably did not even look at them in the paperwork unless they are an ERA for filing purposes, and I sure as hell did not memorize or brief them if I did look. That is what a quick glance at the weather chart is for. They are not go or no-go items.

I think your statement about looking good being more important being good says it all about you. The problem with that is that eventually everyone who really knows you figures out that you are completely full of crap. It takes a seniority list bigger than Cathay's (or the RAF) to hide from that.

For icing on the cake, you mention pride derived from marching in front of a monarch. No real fighter pilot likes marching anywhere except onto the flightline to fly a sortie and promptly into the bar after the debrief (which ironically should be detailed). So my guess is that you are a poser ex-ground attack pilot with no real air to air experience. Let me guess - GR4 or, god forbid, the Jaguar? You are correct in saying that dropping a blivet on target is not rocket science, but flying a 64 ship OCA wall downtown on the first day of the war is (and so is training for that mission).

So save your cheap quips about discipline, professionalism, and 100% for those whom are like minded. When it comes to exerting effort I am much more concerned about proper vector placement than producing more thrust, but I suspect someone calling themselves Max Reheat is more interested in the latter. Don't worry though, I am sure everyone who really knows you understands that you are just blowing hot air.

Cxorcist

Oh cxorcist,

I got a bite.

You sound like an air defender which means you didn't ever lead a 64 ship OCA mission, I can tell you who did!

By the way, the Jag was great!

Also, were you a DEFO? I would guess so.

Top of the class has to fly something :ok:

Max Reheat, just for you:)


When Judgment Is Clouded
MILITARY | SCOTLAND, UK |
(We give weather forecast information for Royal Air Force aircrew officers for fast jet flying.)

Caller: “Hi this is flying officer [name] with [squadron]. I need the weather for 5 hours time on the west coast.”

Me: “So that’s the forecast pressure, wind and cloud cover?”

Caller: “No, I don’t want the forecast conditions. I want the actual weather for 5 hours ahead.”

Me: “I can only do actuals for what’s happened, but I can give my best forecast.”

Caller: “No, that’s not good enough. I don’t want forecasts. I want to know what’s going to actually happen!”

(Someone else takes the call.)

Caller 2: “Hi this is [squadron] navigator. Sorry about that. Can I get the forecast conditions for him, please?”