Not sure if this is in response to what I wrote, but nevertheless, it is true what you say. A lot of people think CX is their first choice airline, for a multitude of reasons. I think is fair to say that a large proportion of those blokes are top notch people. And as you can imagine, that situation is the same for cadets, although their choices are much more limited than those who have other avenues to pursue.

But then, I see a lot of comments from a lot of folks pertaining to why cadets don't deserve housing, is that if it wasn't for the expatriate package, no one would ever come to this craphole. Then they chose to come here, sign on the dotted line, and complain about anything and everything that has to do with this company and this city. Really, you chose to come here, and signed on 'the dotted line', so please be a little bit more thick skinned. Otherwise, don't throw stones from glass houses.

So in the end, no one is ever satisfied with their lot in life. Either a) take it on the chin, and enjoy your job and life a little bit more, or b) realize then that everybody wants a better lifestyle, everyone's concerns are just as valid as yours. It's like the captain who's divorced four times asking a LEP F/O why he or she doesn't support RA65. Or guys who wanted compact rosters so they can commute home, even though many don't require such an option, and now have to live with free reserve.

Don't think LEP's are asking for a full housing package. But every little bit helps. I know of DESO's that are living in the Four Seasons Serviced Apartments. A LEP captain cannot even dream of paying that much rent to live anywhere close to that standard, even if the market today has dropped significantly from what it was before. Nevermind a F/O then.

And if experience merits a higher salary, some come with 2500 hours on mostly props, some come with 5000 hours on regional, some are ex-military with varying degrees of flying experience, and the select few who used to be captains on other airlines. But everyone does the same job, some better than others, with various levels of 'maturity'. Would the guy with 10k hours look at the guy with 2.5k hours and say "why are you being paid as much as I am?" Never seen it happen. Most will be satisfied that when the **** hits the fan, a satisfactory outcome occurs.

And I think this applies to everyone in this company, expat or otherwise.

So where do you draw the line?

If the whole argument is based on expat are getting expat allowances then so should LEPs, what about all the based guys then, don't they have an equally valid argument to receive expat allowances, including 13 month pay, and maybe a special tax allowance seeing how taxes in based countries are twice as high then Hong Kong. Is this realistic though??

Someone asked why expats are so against LEPs receiving expat allowances, I think this is not the case. There are realistic and unrealistic demands. You will find should a based Captain post here demanding a similar special allowance to what an LEP Captain receives, he would be met with the same way.

Are you sure about that?? Last I checked even a studio apartment was above what an SO would be entitled to.

Where is the requested enlightenment?
 

In my opinion hekokimushi in his post #116 has carefully considered previous posts and has posted a very reasonable reply, which I believe is worth repeating. He says:

“What is it guys? enlighten me please
What EXACTLY is it that IF (and this is a BIG IF as the chance is so slim anyway) the locals get the expats package?? what do you guys lose out?? NOTHING?!? so why being so sensitive/naive about it? as the stats clearly show the Local pilot group is the minority and is and always be kept and maintained to a 10% ratio, what is it bugging you guys?? i just do not understand. Are the LEPs a threat?? or would by granting the locals claiming the housing and educational allowance, effectively reducing your bonus?!? makes you less superior because there is no more difference in the allowance?!? or is it that, you then would feel unfair as all the experiences that you have brought to CX has been forgotten???
What is it guys? enlighten me please”

So far there has been no enlightenment.

We all know that there is no dissent on Fragrant Harbour Forums that Hong Kong Local pilots are an almost insignificant minority, so any increase in their terms and conditions is hardly likely to bankrupt their employer.
Furthermore, not one poster has posted any concern about difficult conditions for his local employer.
So again, it should be said:
“What is it guys? Enlighten me please!”

Guava

Midnight Oil I think you are a bit unfair to post this comment:-

"Oh, and while I am at it, I wonder how many of those “pseudo locals “ would perform if they had to go through the full KA cadet selection process and compete with the other local cadets on an equal basis? How many would be found lacking if they were held up to the same rigorous academic and skills test standards?"

I am/was one of those "pseudo locals" who went through the whole KA direct entry process of two interviews and sim ride as well as complete the last 6 weeks of Adelaide and complete the entire FTC course upon my return. I am sure you are not doubting the abilities and standards of your expat colleagues who went throught exactly the same process bar Adelaide as us "pseuso locals" are you???


The Cav:cool:

From previous experience with employment law, once a person is qualified at same level and safe, irrespective of previous life, training etc, it only comes down to state law if you can have different remuneration you can, however if not you will have to rectify it. In Hong Kong employee rights are not that good compared to other jurisdictions. However if a law has been changed or reinterpreted LEP's do have the right to challenge it and get it corrected anyone's personal opinion becomes irrelevant as it can only be looked at with regard to law, not where you came from or how much jet time you had, or cadet program pilots are not a special case, we are just members of the public entitled to be protected by the law like anyone else( we are free men are we not, I know I am). Any other argument leads you down the track that slavery would still be legal the ultimate discrimination. The results will be interesting for both here and in the UK. If some one is found to be discriminated against you could then find people demanding A scale as that is the highest salary that is currently paid to some pilots. I don't profess to know all the details regarding both cases. You need to objectively look at it from the eyes of the law and remove opinion and heresay. I don't want to present an opinion that favours either side, however I don't believe any contract should be changed without agreement if one party is to be disadvantaged. These current situations are created by our employers lack of looking forward in regard to changes of law and to save money.

Many posts and still some continue to chase their tale.

Everyone's monthly pay is the same. If you do not live at home you get a living away from home allowance i.e. an "expat" package. If you are living/working from home you do not get a living away from home / expat allowance.

People based at home in USA, AUS, UK, MARS, VENUS etc, do not get a living away from home / expat allowance. Quite simple really.

The question that is continually being ignored is why local's living at home in Hong Kong feel that they should be paid more than locals in every other country/base that the company has?

You can dress it up with discrimination, philosophy and socio-economic claptrap but the reality is really very simple. Home = no allowances, not at home = allowances. :ugh:

Perhaps all local pilots should roll on the floor and make high pitch wails at the airport to protest about not getting any housing allowance. :}

SMT...............:D;):}:ok:

only problem is, all they will get for that is a J class ticket on CX and some Asia miles :E

Hmmm.... why is that UK based "local" Capt does not get any expat allowance then? He is living away from home, isn't he?:ugh:

Added to this, the company is to shortly announce further opening of the cadet scheme to any nationality. Someone who has never stepped foot in Hong Kong or indeed out of their hometown will be able to apply. Of course, they will be on local terms.

So then where does the argument stand about keeping their native standards of living? If anything it almost looks like they are trying to further dilute the number of expats in CX.

On the other hand if they think they can pay expat cadets local terms and keep their loyalty to Hong Kong and Cathay with 15+ years to command they are in for a shock!

geh, you will still get killed in the stampede of wanabee's ( expat or otherwise ) that will take the cadet route rather than the " shell out 500k HKD " of you're own money route.
CXs local COS are as good or better than conditions in our own countries and whilst a cadetship is not a guarantee of a CX position, it is a win/win situation.....either you get a commercial licence for free or you get a commercial licence for free and a job with CX.
I would have taken it as a young lad, no question.

PS I think you will find 15 years to command ( I thought CX was around 10 ?? ) is pretty standard for a flag carrier, I can say QF is for sure.

fooey,

Absolutely I agree who in their right minds would turn down a chance to have an airline pay for all their training! However local terms compared to normal terms at many other airlines is not all that great and there are quite a few other airlines they could go to and get better pay. 15 years to command is not unusual amongst other big carriers you are right, however this is not the case if you start including the Middle East. Most of these guys and gals will be young ones and the chance to start with their own flag carriers, with comparable or in quite a few cases better conditions and live at home rather than in HK would be a great temptation. They will be at the start of long careers, so a few extra years for that command will not be as important to many of them as for expats who joined CX in their 30s.

There's one thing I don't understand
If the (non-cadet) expats with HKID are paid the local rates, why don't they just quit and work for another airline like SQ?