End of an era
 

News today

CX is to retire the remaining 4 Classics by August 2009. The projected retention of 2 Classics until 2012 is not happening.

Good luck to all FEs.

Not sure whats happening to the Retirees.

Yes very sorry to hear. Great aircraft and I would not have passed the opportunity to fly with a great bunch of very professional aviators. I hope all the F/Es have a lot of luck finding a new job or taking up their retirement.

Good Luck guys.

Anybody knows what the rules concerning the home base are in that case ??

Talking to an F/E last night,
Apparently in this current crisis CX will not place a farewell party on for the F/E. Considering this truely is an end of an era event, it would have been a nice gesture. F/Es have been with CX since the firts Catalina, and has flown on every type up to the classics, i would have thought they deserved a round of drinks.

What would you think about some FE finishing their days out as SO? Send the guys down to Adelaide for a Multi Crew License, and then get them in the back seat. Just ideas we were shooting around the other night.

Certainly many of the Flight Engineers at Virgin Atlantic went on to be pilots when VS phased out the classics.

Maybe they can afford a party. After all, they did manage to waste thousands on a Brand New Mission Statement.

Maybe they can send all the old fart captains over the age of 55 to the desert too!!....Your time has come too!

your time has come !!!
 

In some parts of the World you are nothing put "A WIPER SNAPPER" when you get smart enough you will thank the over 55, for all they taught you.!!!!:)

Wouldn't that perhaps be a "SNAPPER WIPER"? :}

box

is that a wiper snaper (do you fit them to cars? maybe it helps break the ice on the windscreen)
or
a whiper snapper (a fish that is used as a whip? don't think I'll muse on its purpose:})

Good Catch
 

Just standing up for the older Pilots who have paid the price in Aviation no matter where they are from. Thanks!:)

Stalwarts
 

Yep, the end of an era should be marked by the biggest party CX could throw..these guys were the backbone of the airline, managed the ineptitudes of many in the front seats and covered for the long nights and short stays in the holes of wrath down the route. Their audit was value and they had the wisdom of HAECO and CX engineering, Boeing and Lockheed, right on the nib. They were glue for the crew, sometimes irrascible and on ocassion, basic to the tee but non the less, they surpassed the 'need to know culture' and knew the science of their craft, their aeroplane and the way we flew them. Mark their passing young men, for the right hand seat may be next!

As one who has seen the wireless operator, loadmaster, navigator and now flight engineer disappear, I think that the next 'cost centre' up the line should be thinking hard about the future....:cool:

KA are paying for a party for their F/Es in the UK in May. :ok:

Good Luck to all of them, it was a pleasure to fly with them.

Captain Baron ? who joined only 10 years ago has decided to address all pilots over 55 as 'Old Farts' has obviously got some time in - albeit elsewhere. Without reacting to such inane drivel (I know - I'm doing just that!) - were you an instigator of the failed AOA EGM attempt where the Union was supporting a Member just about to Morph into 'Old Fartdom' ?
When you're the Captain of a big jet Son, you'll support the RA 65 motion like all other Captains support it. Until then - keep your silly remarks to yourself!

Matured fart
 

Good one Jagman! The drivel that gets written here amazes me and I must say embarrasses the profession with its frequent vitriol. RA65 is an inevitability and yes, its a dog eat dog business, even before the protocols are hammered out. But in the end, is it really all about the cash? Life is short boys and girls and for those that still have the passion for aviation, many of us simply still enjoy the job of flying, whether age 30, 50 or 60 and beyond. Given the choice, post 55, most of us would prefer to stay with the firm...look at the number of 'retirees' that have flown the gammit of China Airlines, Easy and Korean just to name but three and returned with a sigh of relief, to the sims, the freighters and DHL.
For the blinkered, take a look at the rest of our industry and then afford some introspection...it will make the whole business of BPP, time to command and the retention of "old farts" seem pretty miniscule in the broader picture. Ouch!

daisy120
 

Please do not construe this post as aligning my views with Baron's somewhat caustic comments.

The point you and others make about the change of one's views as age 55 is approached is valid and that Junior Crew must consider this. In the interest of balance, the same can be said to the Senior Crew. When you joined CX, how would you have reacted if as you approached Command, you were told that due to a policy change, to ostensibly favour a different pilot group, your command will slip 10 years.

Would you have said, "fair play... I can wait"... or would you have violently opposed it.

Hang on... don't answer that as I know the answer, I was here when ASL was around (and that concerned the Commands on 7 Freighters only... not the entire fleet for 10 years!!)

well done liam
couldn't have said it better
:ok:

Age 65...Easy. Company just has to pay for it.

Everybody goes to Age 65 at B scale or better. Bottom 5 increments on Captain scale and bottom 2 increments on F/O scale taken out and all increments go to 25 years instead of 17.

Or

Pay bypass until the cows come home.


Joe
(I'm a B scale captain that prefers NOT to have RA65 but willing to look at it if the deal is right for EVERYBODY)

PS Too many pro-RA65er's here sound like greedy bastards and too many anti-RA65er's here sound like they are still pissing into diapers....all of you GROW up and recognize who the enemy here is...it's not each other.


Standing by for the incoherent, one sided flaming.....

Joe
 

No flaming from me.... not troubled by anything you wrote.

However, the problem is the company are not prepared to entertain anything other than "RA65-No BPP". As pilot's, rather than deal with this fundamental issue, we would prefer to engage in some Senior Pilot/Junior pilot "willy- waving".... oops sorry girls.. not sure what you do...

Mature farts
 

LG..you're absolutely spot on and I guess the 10 year to command thingy would be a tough one in today's climate. Having said that, pre 1985, 10 years to command was almost the norm. Last Officer Gosper being one example. Some of us were pretty lucky and managed to get the LHS, with early L1011 options, inside 4 years and strangely, 4 to 5 years for command appeared to set the benchmark to command for a while, ('85 to '86 joiners); that was to be unrealistic, as is the 10 year bench of today. Its a fickle business and what applies today, rapidly can become history tomorrow.

Farewell Classic Party
 

I believe an announcement is imminent, from the relevant fleet office, regarding the "Classic - End of an era" party.

All that has to be decided is at which branch of McDonald's it is to be held.

Daisy120
 

Be in no doubt... I am not talking 10 years to command, I am talking 10 years EXTRA.... bit of a tough one in any economic climate wouldn't you say?

Farties
 

yep, 10 years is hard yakka for sure but that was the norm for a lot of other firms with widebodies. it WILL change, its just a case of hanging in. A mate of mine has just been given notice from Bristows...the barrel is down, the fixed wing guys who hedged well are ok but the helo boys are in deep **** since North Sea is in retention....its the viscious circle again...grin and bare...the farties will help but in the end, its up to you.:bored:

Daisy120
 

For the third time... an increase in the RA from 55 to 65 will almost certainly mean an EXTRA 10 years to Command. To remove all doubt, if Command time was running at 5 years it, would become 15, if it was 10, it will become 20.

Yes the price of oil, recession, boom, bust, expansion, contraction will have an effect. What that effect will be you and I cannot quantify. But what I can say is that, all other things being equal, an increase in RA by 10 years, delays commands by 10 years.

Not looking for sympathy, just stating what I believe is an obvious fact and whilst not excusing or endorsing the tone of some of the posts on here, just highlighting why many hold strong views.

Could some of the CNs inform us of how many years it took to command in this company?

Quote: "Certainly many of the Flight Engineers at Virgin Atlantic went on to be pilots when VS phased out the classics."

Not as I remember it. Most of the Classics in VS went in a knee jerk reaction after 9/11 when the fleet was scrapped overnight. All of those FEs went with them. It was a cull and done without compassion. A couple of them learned about their unemployed state by ACARS - I kid you not! Two of the Classics subsequently continued on operating out of MAN when it was discovered that the knee jerk was too extreme. They were operated with TF registrations under Air Atlanta's AOC. Twenty four of the Classic pilots were retained on the fleet, but many of the FEs on those MAN flights were from Air Atlanta to add insult to injury.

A couple of VS FEs became pilots, but not as a result of the scrapping of the Classic fleet. At the time, the company was shedding pilots as well, so there was no interest in training the FEs to change seats.

Quite a few of those FEs subsequently joined KA. As one of them mentioned to me, it was handy that the FE seniority list was on a separate page in the Ops Manual. To amend your copy, you simply had to tear the page out!

Currently one FE being retrained as pilot as we speak at CX. Good luck CB:ok:

"Could some of the CNs inform us of how many years it took to command in this company?"

Joined '79
Checked out (1st attempt!) early'87
'bout 7.5yrs

MEL