HK Based Freighter Crews, it has begun!
 

Conditions of Service will be as follows:-

Salary will be paid in Hong Kong Dollars. These scales have been calculated at the same percentage of B Scale as all other Freighter Scales (75% for FOs / FEs and 80%/85% for Captains).

Hong Kong based Freighter Crew are eligible for Annual Discretionary Bonus (thirteenth month), prorated for the time based in Hong Kong.

Local Terms apply. Thus Captains will receive a monthly special allowance of HK$24,000 in addition to salary, but no housing or children’s education allowance will be paid.

Other CoS and benefits will be as per Veta HKG local terms, white pages only.

Any Union input to this and how does it compare to Oasis?

Ooh...pilot shortage out of question and what next will CX take:yuk:

A mate of mine on the -400 pax fleet has been asked to give up his leave next month due to heavy tasking. Is this normal, or are the wheels beginning to come off the machine?

Yeah, well if only a certain pocket of 744 Captains would have the balls to say NO to flying the freighter (as many of them are entitled to).

While I can understand that the F/O's are 'pursuaded' to fly under the not-so-subtle veiled threat of having their upgrades delayed, there is no reason for the Captains to do so. This is where some pressure can be brought to bear.

Captain Xxxxx - a quiet word in your ear.......

And as for the wonderful new offer of HKG freighter bases on local terms.. What a great precedent to set. If you take it and get screwed, you deserve it! Mind you, it makes sense. There's no money in freight, right???

While I can understand that the F/O's are 'pursuaded' to fly under the not-so-subtle veiled threat of having their upgrades delayed, there is no reason for the Captains to do so.

So you expect the Cn's to take the 'heat' yet again. Reminds me of the MSS era. Either we all take action or forget it. I'll get my coat......

Yes........

I can't believe they want to start a HK Freighter base by offering a pay cut :*
Thy're such greedy fuchers! If you compare the proposed scale to the current US base scale, which is lower than Europe due to the strong BP, it is a paycut starting from year 4 FO until it becomes a huge paycut on year 8 FO
They say you can bid this HK freighter base after 2 years. No wonder, the first two years it would be a pay rise for a US FO on the freighter to take the HK base. Here are some numbers converted to USD for comparison, they assume 7.8 HKD per USD. These are monthly salary figures.
YR1 FO 6179 in HK vs 5292 in US (887 USD difference)
YR2 FO 6282 in HK vs 5792 in US (490 USD difference)
Year 3 the scales are just about tied...
YR3 FO 6388 in HK vs 6292 in US
Year 4 is where the scale in HK progressively gets ****tier and ****tier. It starts with a slight paycut going to a huge, almost 1000 USD per month paycut for year 8FO. That is 12,000 USD per year! What are they smoking and where can I get some...
YR4 FO 6496 in HK vs 6750 in US (254 USD difference)
YR5 FO 6716 in HK vs 7253 in US (537 USD difference)
YR10 FO 7627 in HK vs 8619 in US (992 USD difference)
I really hope nobody takes this ****ty deal. If they don't, then they will continue to pay Passenger 744 FOs and CAs to do the same job for 2 times the money. Anyone taking this deal is really screwing all of us! I know that everyone has their own situation to look after, but please, don't take this deal. If you go to Oasis you can make bundles more money. If you are on a freighter commitment then just request an HBR, you will make more money.
The 13th month bonus is discretionary, and even with it, you will only come close to the current scale but not reach it. If you are on a European scale then the pay-cut is even worse! :ugh: :ugh: :yuk:

what is it about UK tax @ 35% that you do not understand ??? The HKG Frt base will also be dsigned with "Commuters" in mind........................


get it ???

U.S. Rosters
 

One can only imagine the effect this is going to have on U.S. rosters. I am guessing... not very good.

What exactly ?
 

Not sure what all the fuss about this is. There have been Hong Kong bases Captains on Hong Kong rosters for a while now. Granted they are on the pay scale of whatever base the are in.

Also there are quite a few freighter FOs based in Hong Kong now, flying both the classic and the 400. As far as I know they do not get 13th so for them this might be good. FOs will be on pax pay by year four so who cares ?? If not they will be on by pass pay (unless the co has figured out how to get around that !!

Comparing Freighter scales between USAB and the new Hong Kong freighter is nowhere near as big a pay difference as that between some of the pax bases and Hong Kong. Or worse yet between bases !!

What is interesting is that it will cost the company more. So why are they offering it officially now ?


hmmmm

So why are they offering it officially now ?


Same thought crossed my mind. I think I know the answer but would like to hear other inputs

So why are they offering it?
 

Do a search on Crew Direct and look at the CN's on the freighter trips to ANC; 080, 096, 084....... might be a clue?

Thin end of a thick wedge methinks.....

well I guess Cathay don't care what end of what it is.................


as long as they don't have to pay any more wedge, eh??

I wonder if Number Cruncher has had the opportunity to er "crunch the numbers".

I also wonder if NC is in a position to comment if this "package" was included in, or discussed during COS08 negotiations....

Word round the camp fire is that our former colony were asking how our "on-shore" company was able to employ pilots without a green card....:eek:

You beat me to it Liam

ATTENTION ATTENTION....Calling NC!

So why are they offering it officially now ?

Because the HKD is going to get cheaper than the Pound, Euro,AUD NZD etc etc:}

So it's EXPATS on LOCAL terms!....... Thin Edge....WEDGE!

The following is meant for freighter officers only.

It depends on who wants this package...commuters wanting to get to australia or the US? For any EUR based guys it will be a huge paycut. For Aus and US based guys it will be neutral. I know there are many FEs that are EUR based that commute to Australia...they will take paycuts around 10% - CNs will take around 17% paycuts - I have assumed 13th month is paid.

I suspect this deal formally recognises the ongoing practice of hong kong rosters. Additionally, the classic will be regional only in a year or two so presumably those outport bases will close anyway(for the classic).

There will always be tax issues with basings and hence onshoring will be required. Many of our colleagues are on thin ice with their tax authorities. Being Hong Kong based and commuting may suit some of our colleagues who would prefer their name isn't listed in an onshore company employee list.

This is most definitely a commuter's offer - the lack of any housing for FO/FEs I think is the company recognising that FEs in particular have no choice in future if they wish to remain employed.

I do not see anything Machiavellian in this offer. If the CoS08 deal had been accepted, there would be no FACA and we would have UFO pay scales in place. This is similar to that situation except the pay is lower under this offer.

There is nothing positive in this deal for pax fleet officers!

"We have also received requests from Freighter Crew members working a Hong Kong roster (HBR) that they would like this situation to be formalized to give them security."

Nothing to do with CX paying tax on someone who has a european base yet never goes there!!

or

Nothing to do with european labour protection on termination of your contract!!

Call me cynical - no errr yes................................................

Glass Half Empty
You cynical???
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!
However must fess up the same thought crossed my mind and am surprised you are the first to mention it. CX are not a charity and they are not just being warm and fuzzy to freight dogs because they like them. It's all to do with the bottom line I suspect.

Local Terms
 

The notice says Local terms apply. Can anyone be sure that if you sign over to this Hong Kong Base on Local terms as an F/O or Cpt weather or not you will be able to go back to Expat terms in the future????? For F/O's when you have done 3 years from the initial line check will you be able to bid HK Based Pax F/O or as a Cpt will you be able to bid Pax Cpt when your seniority will hold it????

Just for info!

The same package has been offered to KA staff.

This comes after 3 resignations from the freighter fleet. (separate thread)

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

Interesting. I think CX is clutching at straws on this one. I suspect only those who are desperate to stay in, or move to, HKG would be interested(residency issues/commuters etc).

Mr G. On the other thread I think you are correct. Anyone signing anything these days needs to consider getting sound legal advice - whether it be Swish 266's rapid command entry (good luck old chap, but don't say you weren't warned) or anyone signing up to onshore companies and unwittingly signing away their statutory rights under the local labor laws etc. There are so many potential pitfalls that CX are conveniently failing to mention. It is only by open debate on these forums that many of these pitfalls are coming to light.

Dear Newbie
 

Newbie your statement
Yeah, well if only a certain pocket of 744 Captains would have the balls to say NO to flying the freighter (as many of them are entitled to).

I find it interesting to say the least how some folks always attempt to blame others for particular events and often have the facts wrong as well.

Firstly very few B744 Pax crew, Capt and FO have volunteered to fly the freighter, it is the underhanded way the company have changed the goal posts that if the point of concern. A large number of HKG 744 Capts are being rostered Freighter Flying without volunteering. When challenging Crew Control or management they are told that they are no longer able to take Temporary Basings if they elect not to fly freighter aircraft. Now if the AOA was to say do not fly freighter aircraft I am sure that would happen, crew would say no in large numbers however the company would probably stop temporary basings for all crew. That would be fair and equitable pain for all crew but could you imagine the squealing from the Airbus and 777 crew.

For those that point the finger at the B744 crew is not a matter of balls to say no it is a matter of the balancing the cost of saying no. I ask the question of what is your objective by suggesting that B744 Pax crew do not fly freighters.

There is a contary school of opinion that there is nothing wrong with B744 crew flying freighter aircraft for the Full and proper salary, the full and proper housing, eduction, travel funds and medical coverage. Almost to a man they have waited in line for their rightful turn in seniority to fly the B744, and along the way witnessed many acts of been undercut and seen many junior crew jump in and take a cheap freighter command.

Who is it you want to improve the COS for, is it the que jumpers who have the B744 freighter command after 2 years service, is it those that are going to jump in now and take the recently advertised slots. Most pilots are smart enough to know that this is a bad deal and they will not take it and CX will troll down the list untill they find the desparado they are looking for.

Just have the right group in your sights before you pull the trigger

Hi Cyril

A good point but should the AOA then also put a ban on people taking freighter commands? My understanding is that it is not currently frowned upon or if it is I have not been made aware of it.

I think that perhaps it would be a step in the right direction.

Jetset

Perspective
 

I have discussed this with many a cx bretheren.

Those that oppose any pax pilot flying the freighter use the logic that it would in some way put pressure on the company during negotiations etc. This IMHO is not likely. If the freighter flying were to be gradually undermanned (as would be the case as people slowly stop flying the freighter) then the company would have time to force us by way of negative incentive, to fly the freighter.

So what exactly are we achieving by not flying the freighter ?

FG

Can’t argue with that logic. How’s that pay rise going anyway?:ok:

Really? Do we work for the same company?? Have you seen the failure rate of Freighter FOs that que up for freighter command having not come from the passenger fleet???

...Take the hint my man, I think it is pretty safe to say that it counts as a "frown".:ugh:

And if you think the two aren't related then you need to open your eyes and smell the statistics.

Okay, fair enough but there is no statement from the AOA to that effect and the management positively encourage it.

I have been encouraged to do it since I joined and I haven't heard any talk on the freighter fleet that would lead me to believe that it is understood to be out of seniority.

Is it AOA policy, CX pilots policy or what?

Points taken. But we have to start somewhere and if you look at the crewlists for freighter flights, you will see how many pax Captains are flying the freighter. The AOA are probably too scared to put out any direction for fear of hurting our new found wonderful relationship with the company. NR may just have to write another DFO update expressing his disappointment in a further 'setback in relations'.

These are FACTS
Hong Kong Based Line Capts flying at least one freighter pattern in September is just shy of 50%, this could not be described as a small pocket of crew. This does not include reserve callouts or C & T. Very few Europe and NAM pax crew are rostered freighter flights.

These are assumptions
The vast majority have not voluntered to fly the freighter. This is vastly different from one year ago, and is going to get worse as more B744F arrive and crew resign from CX Freighters. The reason based crew do not fly freighters is they are flat out covering the Hong Kong crew unavailable to fly pax aircraft because they fly a significant amount of freighters. It could be the other 50% that fly freighters in October.

Funny old thing we told them this would happen the day they announced the ASL debacle.

If you want the AOA to come out and recommend things then tell them. Write in and say "tell people not to fly the freighter" or "how about contract compliance". Its a democracy - tell us what you want.

Gas guzzlers
 

Oil hit US$81 yesterday, with more rises to come if you believe the pundits...... suggest the Classic boys prepare for the worst..:sad: