Where are people going?
 

Reading about all the pilots leaving CX am just wondering where are people going as a next step?:confused:

Fedex and UPS for the Yanks.

For Aussies
 

Well, I tried to do some comparisons on joining CX, EK or QF today.

I assumed command in QF in year 14(currently 14-15), CX after 9 years(will slide out to at least 12+ with RA65) and after 5 years in EK(currently 3-4years). Note, both EK and QF already have RA65 - but QF's only allows the older pilots to fly domestic and not all older long haul guys do the type transfer.

A career model is only as good as your assumptions. I tried to keep it 'apples with apples'. With QF I assumed the CX guy went on a base as soon as he cleared the JFO hurdle and then, later, only spent 1 year in HKG as a CN. I don't think that last assumption is valid now as RA65 will most likely reduce the availability of Aussie CN basings for quite a while - 10 years+ probably. No science to that assumption, just personal belief! ANyway, in the QF CX assumption the CX guy would have been in Oz for more than half of his first 10 years subject to the same aussie taxes but not enjoying free parking and long service leave;-)

For Emirates I think it only fair that I 'gross up' their earnings to equate with CX salaries. That is, $100K HKD equivalent tax free is really $119K (ie $119K less 16% tax is $100K). I have not included their ERP(Exchange Rate Protection) pay which is up to 7.5% of their salary. This is paid regardless of when you joined. It is paid if your home currency has appreciated over the last 5 years versus the USD(Dirham is also pegged to USD at 3.66). At the moment, Aussies, Canucks, Kiwis and Poms are getting the maximum of 7.5% ERP and have been for the last few years. Like I said, I have NOT included the ERP in these calculations.

In simple terms, ignoring tax etc and using recent exchange rates.

After 10 years in QF you would be 25% ahead in gross earnings vs CX.
After 10 years in EK you would be 28% ahead in 'net' earnings vs CX - with ERP it is in excess of 30%(7.5% applies to salary, not their HDP).

Note - EK and CX career comparison is more accurate as both treated as expats - assumed constant 16% tax in HKG.

EK profit share averages more than 4-5 weeks a year. If you apply current CX profit share formula to last 15 years, you get an average of 10 days profit share.

It is very difficult to accurately compare different airlines with different pay/rostering rules in different tax jurisdictions. For example, I(with the help of an Aussie based friend) recently did an analysis of 10 AIrbus aussie based CX CNs using QF rostering rules and payments. Their average pay would have been $260K vs their CX pay around $205-$215K. Now, QF guys of that seniority would have defined benefit schemes vs CX 15.5%. And QF get free parking, free taxis for about half of the trips and long service leave which has NOT been included in the comparison.

Why did I choose 10 years? Because over 2/3rds of our pilots have been in CX less than 10 years. I can easily do the calculations for 5 years or 25 years. But how many of us plan to be in HKG for 25 years?

clear as mud?

They go somewhere better - not hard to find! Especially not during times like these where its all coming back to us. Thats even for the average dude :ok:

Personally Im going back to something that I know is quite a lot better than this. Ohh you want specifics. Ok - SAS. :p

Happy "flying" folks.

Ok
I have been given an offer from CX as a DEFO. Now with all the changes coming up I am re-thinking it and wondering where else I should/could go.

Thanks Numero Crunchero........I am considering EK and SIA so appreciate the number crunching! Anyone have any other suggestions?

I have JAR licenses and have 5000 hrs total and over 2000 hrs on various busses small and wide but all on the right seat!

Leaving? I'm off to Lan Kwai Fong for some Roties ;)

a_a320busdriver, i got a couple of mates in EK who really enjoy it, i know there are stories to the contrary though. Also Etihad are a good bet from what i hear. F/O job at CX is not the holy grail by a very long shot.

Good on you, have a good rute!

Emirates
 

I just love PPRUNE. You can write any innuendo you like and it must be true as anything written in response is just validating the original statement's veracity.

Mini Cooper.
Approx 94 guys left EK last year before retirement age. That equates to less than 5% of their total pilot workforce. A huge percentage of their CNs are Direct Entry - I think it is of the order of 20-30%. WHy have DECs? Because they have had trouble getting everyone to upgrade. The EK salary was so low a few years ago that they had to cast the net far and wide to find people willing to work for them. The consequence was that many that joined are not suitable to be upgraded at the 3-4 year mark.

Work rate - well, with that 5% leaving and rapid expansion some of the AIrbus guys were pushing 900 hours. This year the annual hours will be much closer to 700 hours.

So how do you raise the standard of new joiners - you pay more. EK gave a 17% payrise this year(6% on base salary, 11% in newly introduced HDP). EK payrises have been in excess of 40% over the last 5 years - or in excess of 50% if you include the effect of their Exchange Rate Protection.

If an EK pilot did up to 84 CX style credit hours, he would currently be getting $63.7K HKD(grossed up for HKG tax) as a year 1 FO and if he gets his command in year 5 he will be on $100.3K. I have not included profit share as we can just assume it is the same as our 13th month and profit share combined - well, actually it is more but not worth worrying about.
They have rent free or buy schemes like CX. Apart from free utilities most of their benefits are on a par with CX.

Why do people leave - FOs don't like having DECs? Long term CNs want to return to Australia/home country?

By the way, since EK have 3% increments vs CX's current 1.8%, the gap between an EK and CX CNs' salary continues to increase with time!

So EK pilots leaving in masses heh? Will be interesting to see how many this year versus how many leaving CX after the announcement of the pay rises! I think the CX historic rate was less than 1%(not counting retirees). I know from some mates in Virgin Blue management that a bunch of their pilots have done interviews with EK - wonder how many Virgin Blue guys did CX interviews?

The attraction of EK used to be quick commands (3-4years vs CX 12+ years with RA65). Now it is quick commands AND more money than CX.

Actually Mini cooper, I apologise. Maybe you posted that negative view of EK to feel good about being in CX? Maybe you are in EK and think the grass is greener in CX? I have a good friend who has worked in both so I have had some great insight.

Lets just say that when they are handing our awards for "Best Human Resource Management of Airline Pilots" it will be neck and neck between CX and EK - for the wooden spoon!

NC..........stop posting Balanced unbiased views, it totally destroys the image we are trying to create !!!!

Balanced?
 

I have a chip on both shoulders so I am balanced.

Forgot to mention for those types that don't remember numbers like me.
Currently a year 1 FO(not JFO) in CX gets $67K a month and a year 1 CN gets $103K a month. Very close to EK numbers - except you get the FO 1 in CX about 4 years after the EK guy and you get the CN 1 salary about 7-9years after the EK guy!

Current CX payrates for FO1 and CN1 put us at 1991/92 A scale levels - can't wait to see what year we move up to after all the payrises.

Hmmmmm - 1992 for FO 1 and 1993 for CN 1 - still, I am only guessing;-)

By the way, the exchange rate in 1992 was 5.6 for AUD and 13.66 for GBP.

A320/40 Tiger Australia
 

An Aussie in charge of training, yikes:(

Just out of interest, why is the housing scheme NOT included in the 'pay scheme' ..... I think the EK one is only worth 200K a year and well.... That's not a lot is it....

Housing
 

Why have I never included housing? Well for a couple of reasons.

Housing allowance is based on where you live. HKG is dearer than DXB. I get no more benefit from renting for $72K than I did 13 years ago when I rented for $39K. In both schemes I ended up paying around $5-6K HKD per month.

In both companies you can get a lesser amount for purchasing but presumably you will need to downgrade your standard of housing in order to pay it off in a reasonable time frame. That is a personal choice and should not be included as not everyone wishes to, or is capable of, downgrading their housing requirements.

I have been to DXB many times. I can assure you that EK housing is far superior to what you can get in HKG - they are usually partially furnished and free utilities to boot! To get close to EK standard you have to rent above the RFZ. So maybe to make the comparison fair, I should assume all CNs rent at the upper ceiling and therefore cost themselves $5-6K a month more than the EK package?

So no I never include lifestyle choices. I try to keep it simple and 'apples with apples' as much as possible!

NC, dont work for any of the afore mentioned so have no axe to grind, but am looking at, and do have friends in, HK.
Dumbing it down to my level, to bank 100k in Oz you have to be paid ( roughly ) 140K to earn 100Kaud at CX or Dragon dont you only have to earn 100K ? ( due to 13 month bonus ?? and low tax )
Also there is no hsg allow in Oz, if you are lucky/unlucky enough to live in Sydney and dont want to live in a war zone or drive 1 1/2 hours to work you can conservitively kiss goodbye to 2000k net a month ( 24 a year ), also contrary to popular belief ( mainly from those " lucky " country die hards ) it is not a cheap place to live and in the top 5 ( overall ) taxed countries in the world ( consider that higher taxed countries look after you when you retire, not " pi55 off, you own too many things " )
I have friends at QF who would be on around 160-170K as an F/O ( more than 10 years of service ) and would be losing circa 50K in tax. That takes them down to say 110-120aud minus rent?

120000 aud after tax in oz is a LOT of money for sitting in the RHS.

CX v QF, any thoughts NC
 

Personally I don't have a problem with someone earning 120K a year after tax for sitting in the right hand seat, I think it sounds quite fair for someone with a truckload of widebody experience who can probably save his/her company many times that by the wisdom gained in those years leading to good decisions in the air and on the ground.
Having said that, I'm looking at both Cathay and Qantas at the moment, don't you love recruitment drives! The rental and schooling assistance that Cathay offers looks pretty good as a perk.
How does it stack up in reality though??? Is it enough to get a place big enough to offset the loss of that Ozzie dream, a backyard big enough for a barbie and a game of touch with the kids??

Back on thread, QF are losing a steady stream of pilots to EK at the moment (many of them short haul guys) and even a few to Jetstar due to an agreement for sharing seniority numbers that would put a QF transfer in a left hand seat within 18months.

So is Cathay worth leaving Australia for even with the perks???:cool:

I can tell you right now that the great Aussie dream will take years in CX to recover (if at all) nowadays. If it's a backyard and BBQ area you want, then the HKG lifestyle will not be for you. As a S/O, you will be struggling to find a decent pad - especially if you have a family. Without a family, the housing allowance will get you a cute (read: small) pad in town. The touch will have to be played in a field shared with lumps of dog crap.

The education allowance is ok, but these days some parents are finding it increasingly difficult to get their kids into the good schools. There are other threads and web articles on this, but suffice to say that to guarantee a place in some schools, a hefty and upfront payment will be required.

Having said that, long term the housing is ok if you can weather the initial dump in lifestyle. That is of course, unless CX decides to play with that again!

Allowances
 

Thanks newbie,
Out of interest is the allowance based on rank, number of kids or what?

mini cooper
 

I am an A scaler and I work hard and I get the renumeration to boot and I will go to 65 so suck on that ! Where's that new contract! Hey also mini you need to do something about your GRAMMAR!

mineok65 and cunning
 

Many questions to answer - will answer a few.

Rental assistance.
Once you are past the first 2 years (as an SO) you get what is called the Rent Free Zone(RFZ). This amount will give you a reasonable standard but not great. If you choose to use this money to buy, you will need to downgrade your standards in order to pay off your flat in a reasonable time frame. Or, just like Sydney, you can go to the outer suburbs and get a house but with the appropriate reduced potential capital gain and long commute time!

Its a bit difficult to quantify but assuming you are just renting in HKG, then you will come out ahead as you can live 'rent free' in HKG and buy the house/flat you want in OZ and rent it out.

Education.
Not as good as it looks. In the blurb it says you get 90% of ESF rate(or 75% of other schools)...sounds good. BUT, I would say the majority of CX expats have their kids in International Schools where the fees are significantly higher. CX will pay up to 75% of these fees but the amount is taxed. To keep it simple assume you will pay about 1/3rd of school fees (after tax) which will be around $3-5K AUD(that you will pay) for primary school.

Basings.
If you want the backyard etc then you may end up wanting an Aussie base. It is hard to predict the effects of our changing retirement age on basing availability but I suspect it will make them harder to get. On a base, on the UFO scale, you will be on approx $94K before tax. Eventually that will rise up to $140K'ish after 4-5 years on the base. Obviously these salaries are fully taxed in Oz and you do NOT get any expat benefits.

Command
Its hard to predict...right now it is about 13 years in QF and 9 years in CX. QF already has RA65(via domestic fleet) and CX is moving towards RA65. My best guess is that command(with RA65) will be at 12-13 year mark in CX unless they ramp up the expansion massively - and no external shocks like SARS, 9-11, asian contagion, bird flu etc etc.

Career earnings?
Good question - if I had joined QF when I joined CX I would be earning more but I would be paying Aussie tax. Cost of living in HKG with kids is much higher than Oz. If I went on a base now I would definitely be on less than I would be on in QF right now. Thats the past, the future.....?

There are many intangibles that cannot be numerated. Such as the ability to bid across aircraft. In CX there is minimal control over that. Roster bidding is in its nascent stage in CX. Someone of my seniority in QF would be on about $70-90K AUD more a year than I am on now as an A scaler in HKG.

Bottom line - apply to both. If both offer you a job then you can decide what is important to you.

"I am an A scaler and I work hard and I get the renumeration to boot and I will go to 65 so suck on that ! Where's that new contract! Hey also mini you need to do something about your GRAMMAR!"


Whilst on the suject of GRAMMAR, (& spelling), what is "renumeration" please?;)

Could it be, "This street has been renumerated" meaning all the numbers have been changed? Just can't find it in the OED!:}

Numero Crunchero
I gather you are under the impression that to go past 60 in QF you have to go domestic...........until recently that was the case but no longer so. Having said that I don't think many in long haul are going passed 60 due to the new tax rules on retirees earnings, there is none! :)

Isn't it funny how everyone views other jobs differently with sand and money, high rise and money, BBQs and tax!

Offchocks
 

Thanks mate. I didn't realise that it had already been sorted - in the last month or so I assume.

I assume you are QF? If so, with the div 3 super and the new div 7(?) super, do you think it likely that pilots will still stop at 60? I know div 3 payouts but have little knowledge of div 7. If it is anything like our DC scheme then i suspect, tax free or not, guys will need to work a little longer to get the PF up to where it needs to be to retire.
cheers

Numero Crunchero

Yes I'm with QF, I did reply earlier but it got lost out there in the big web.
Div 3 is relatively new (12 yrs?) and the members have quite a while to go before retirement. Therefore there is no serious talk of them extending past 60, not many are happy with their super situation and quite a few are investing elsewhere.

Div 7 must be something new that I've not heard about.

Much obliged NC
 

Many thanks for the all the info, you should have become a business analyst, by now you'd be earning more than an QF and CX CN combined !
From what you've said, I think a large part of it comes down to how long you plan to spend in the company. With over twenty years left in me I'm thinking the QF option might provide more bang for my buck at the back end of my career when I'll definitely want to be home for the kids high school years, but then again the choice of living anywhere in the world that Cathay offers is very appealing.
I'll keep pondering, and thanks once again. Fingers crossed for a fragrant harbour pay rise soon, well overdue.

Mini –Cooper.
When I joined CX they use to say goodbye to all crew that resigned. This has stopped. Wonder why? It would probably be the longest part of the Friday brief. I dare to say that at the junior ranks we have more people leaving then EK.
Where are they going? Air France will take non-French speakers and give them a 3-month language course (I have asked CX numerous times to assist us with Cantonese / Mandarin classes, but this cost time and money remember)
Corporate across the road pay very well on some seriously well equipped machines.
SAS are recalling etc,etc…

Very few pilots will leave CX. Many don’t have the courage. Many will beat their chests and make lots of noise but in the end it is all hot air. Typical CX pilot.

You will be accepting this new offer, you just don’t realize it yet.

The Management