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Cathay Cadets Stopped From Flying Solo

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Cathay Cadets Stopped From Flying Solo

Old 7th Jun 2024, 22:45
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This is sad
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 00:22
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It should be if no surprise to anybody. A sad infected airline that has fallen from far from grace. The headlines are damming and so is the management. Sad state of affairs of a once not so bad airline , now just a smorgasboard of ordinary leftovers orchestrated by chefs who only just passed cooking school. Good luck to all the wannabe’s wanting a job here.
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 01:09
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Originally Posted by BuzzBox
That somewhat misses the point. These trainees were "selected" as potential airline pilots. The airline concerned has a very clear safety policy that says "punitive action will not be taken against individuals for unpremeditated or inadvertent errors", the aim being to learn from those mistakes to help prevent future similar events. However, the same policy says "it must be understood by all that reckless behaviour and deliberate violations of Company standards and procedures, including deliberate failure to report, will never be tolerated." The optics alone would dictate the airline can't just brush these incidents aside because they were trainees.
We all know the above statements regarding non punitive action against 'inadvertent errors' is BS in this part of the world (Asia), at best any safety event with any airline in Asia or ME it would be reported on your training file and you'll never get an upgrade or worse case scenario you'll be chopped or downgraded. I bet you the individual who dinged the prop, reported or not will have been removed from the program regardless.
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 03:14
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Originally Posted by Oddball77
We all know the above statements regarding non punitive action against 'inadvertent errors' is BS in this part of the world (Asia), at best any safety event with any airline in Asia or ME it would be reported on your training file and you'll never get an upgrade or worse case scenario you'll be chopped or downgraded. I bet you the individual who dinged the prop, reported or not will have been removed from the program regardless.
That claim misses the point, which was that deliberately failing to report a safety-related event will not be tolerated.
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 05:40
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Regardless of the policy, if you damage somebody's else properties, let's say a car, you would inform the owner of the car about the damage and possibly you would offer a sincere apology with compensation, that's what a responsible mature grown up would do. You would not cover it up and praying nothing's gonna happen or even transfer those mistakes back to the owner or whoever comes after you. That's a childish act. So No. I am not surprised with the outcome. People Department basically is playing with fire, not only did they give this hiring mission to a few young inexperienced gals who know nothing about people comparing with the previous HR team, but they basically taking on everybody who says, I have a passion, well, that's what they get!
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 07:02
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1) How do you know cadet requirements have changed? Evidence?

2) I did my ATP in the US 30 years ago and we were all afraid of the Koreans in the flight school
next door since many had no command of English. Training foreigners in US was always tough.

3) Flight training ab initio always includes risks and aircraft will be damaged. But have incidents really increased overall?

https://www.flyingmag.com/is-flight-training-getting-safer/

4) How is the situation elsewhere?

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/after-2-crashes-flying-school-shut-for-3-months-leaves-students-worried/article67785677.ece/amp/





Last edited by corporal klinger; 8th Jun 2024 at 07:45.
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 07:07
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How do you know they haven't with the difference in outcomes presented?
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 07:10
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Originally Posted by rhoshamboe
How do you know they haven't with the difference in outcomes presented?
Could be other reasons. Maybe time pressure on cadets has increased? Maybe the culture at the flight school is to blame, maybe some individual flight instructors, management of that flight school etc etc. Is there really a difference regarding the cadets? Sounds overblown to me. The flight school is p$ssed because they had some damage and no report. Happens to every small ac charter company a million times. My guess is next week they will resume, it's a slap on the wrist

Last edited by corporal klinger; 8th Jun 2024 at 07:44.
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 08:14
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Did it happen when you went through Adelaide? (Assuming that you did of course)
It's a question of trend as opposed to a question of what is reasonable or expected.
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 08:28
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Originally Posted by corporal klinger
Could be other reasons. Maybe time pressure on cadets has increased? Maybe the culture at the flight school is to blame, maybe some individual flight instructors, management of that flight school etc etc. Is there really a difference regarding the cadets? Sounds overblown to me. The flight school is p$ssed because they had some damage and no report. Happens to every small ac charter company a million times. My guess is next week they will resume, it's a slap on the wrist
"Cathay pilot training incidents probed by US aviation regulator. US AVIATION safety regulators are investigating claims that pilot trainees for Cathay Pacific Airways at a US flight school were involved in training mishaps that were not properly reported. The US Federal Aviation Administration is probing the alleged incidents, the agency said on Friday (Jun 7) in a statement to Bloomberg. It did not provide additional details..."
https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/com...tion-regulator

Both FAA and HKCAD are involved now. And you still think this is overblown?
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 12:36
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This has nothing to do with flying, this is about integrity. They should be fired on the spot, can’t be on a flight deck and a clear message is sent to cadets, candidates and authorities.
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Old 8th Jun 2024, 13:11
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by corporal klinger
1) How do you know cadet requirements have changed? Evidence?

2) I did my ATP in the US 30 years ago and we were all afraid of the Koreans in the flight school
next door since many had no command of English. Training foreigners in US was always tough.

3) Flight training ab initio always includes risks and aircraft will be damaged. But have incidents really increased overall?

https://www.flyingmag.com/is-flight-...getting-safer/

4) How is the situation elsewhere?

https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...85677.ece/amp/
Evidence, it’s called mainland recruitment. That’s seems to be the ONE thing that has changed. Do we need to answer the rest of your questions…

However, I am impressed by the rest of your questions as you have decided to include one country that truly represents high safety standards and are recognised as leaders in airline flight safety.

Forget Cantonese, practice your Mandarin. Hindu might help as well


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Old 8th Jun 2024, 14:01
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Originally Posted by KABOY
CX had been running these programs for decades, this is the first where the company has been identified for lacking a safety culture. It’s so bad that it extends across the whole cohort of cadets.

The safety culture needs to be instilled from the start, but this mindset is now a result of the mainland recruitment drive. A culture that has formed over thousands of years that today still poses issues behind the Great Wall. Losing face in HK was manageable, but losing face as mainlander is inexcusable…

Well done CX, now you shall reap.
It is all about the quality of the candidates… it used to be that 10-15 years ago, getting into CX cadetship is harder then getting into Harvard or any Ivy League University… CX essentially get the crème of the crop in terms of candidates… nowadays, they accept anyone or everyone… all of those who used to failed the cadets interview are all now on a course… in terms of the interview process, it is water down to the bare minimum… no flight grading, no all day interview and technical test, no group exercise to see how candidates mental behavior is like… this is all due to CX HR has taken over the pilot hiring process, instead of FOP has their dedicated HR team… CX HR operate the hiring process as if it is a cattle farm, this is the target, we just need to get anyone to fill the seats, to CX HR, it is not their responsibility to ensure these candidates will do a good job because these HR people doesn’t understand what’s needed to become a pilot… to them CX HR thinks every job on the street can fly… so just let the flight school deal with the filtering… all of these will be a recipe for disaster especially in the long run.
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Old 9th Jun 2024, 08:47
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Indeed, back in the days just the aptitude test was so difficult to pass, 2 or 3 hits then you are out. Maths portion? Don't even get me started. It's impossible to finish all of them, then you have an interview which consists of all "gweilos" which means your English proficiency is assessed in many different ways. NOW? NOW?? Have a try yourself you see it is a JOKE! This airlines is hopeless.
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Old 9th Jun 2024, 12:46
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How do I know ? I fly with them.

Not an economically attractive job anymore.
Horrible HR recruiting team.
Minimum training.
Huge push to hire HKers which is fine and understandable but the good ones are not applying.
Mainland recruitment, ask your friends working in China about their mentality.

I don’t know where you did your initial / basic training but I don’t remember all those incidents and when it happened people would go under the microscope and most times will end up chopped.
It is an unforgiving job unfortunately, if you miss the integrity as well is an easy choice if you ask me.
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Old 9th Jun 2024, 17:09
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Cathay Pathetic (CP)has once again been name shamed - and once again Cathay Pathetic deserves to be so! The fact that even a service provider, sourcing income from CP, say enough is enough, is a downright disgrace on the Recruitment of CP. Then again, knowing the history of the airline, this comes as little surprise to most of us. It´s truly sad that Cathay Pacific has come down this low!
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 19:36
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Geert Hofstede had it right, and so did Boeing.

"These dimensions of culture defined by Hofstede have been previously shown to be correlated with airline accidents. A 1993 Boeing study initially linked culture with aviation accident rates. It found that high power distance countries had high rates of airline accidents, while countries with high individualism had lower accident rates"

This study has been often cited, including by Phillips (1994) and Gladwell (2008).

Then Ashleigh Merrit and Robert Helmlein (Human Factors on the Flight Deck: The Influence of National Culture 1996) brought it up to date. Indeed Ashleigh Merrit assisted and influenced cross cultural training aspects of HK Chinese pilots for CX in the 1990s.

To expect an educated Mainland Chinese mind un-exposed to western cultural concepts to be able to react under stress to a western invented, devised and executed technology and training system, without effective cross cultural training is doomed to failure.

Adelaide did cross cultural very well, but I guess they were too expensive for the current management. You get what you pay for. I very much doubt that culture is even mentioned in a regular American flight school or the HR harpies will haul you in for an "Awareness Course"


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Old 11th Jun 2024, 08:28
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I see all this and everyone getting involved as an excellent thing. The more pressure CX and its Swire management swine come under, the better for everyone else.
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Old 11th Jun 2024, 08:55
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Originally Posted by Dingleberry Handpump
My family won’t be going anywhere near a CX jet, that’s for damn certain.
Oh no!

Anyway.....
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Old 12th Jun 2024, 06:45
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I have been out of the CFI thing for a long time but I had about 1 year with (mainland) cadets in the US in the 1990s
They were all pretty good, and mostly trainable None of them had ever driven a car but they were already selected by airlines
The one thing they all had trouble with was leadership and taking up the idea that they are going in charge of their own ship

One exercise we had in the course before they went on cross country solo flights was instructor would vector student toward a local peak
then stop paying attention. I swear half of them would fly it into the ground. Too used to being told what to do all the time
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