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RIP. Lets not let CX sweep this one under the rug

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

RIP. Lets not let CX sweep this one under the rug

Old 14th Sep 2022, 14:12
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Papa123
China, why are you sooooo defensive of Cathay (management). For most of us here I believe we see this as a sick play on a workforce who have no other career options. THAT is heartless.
Are you serious? Literally the entire world is recruiting pilots.
Wake up to yourselves. CX doesn't want you.
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Old 14th Sep 2022, 14:51
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs down

STW said this,
"I don't defend Cathay, I don't even understand the issue. A company is a lifeless entity created to make money. The job of management is to maximise profit on behalf of the shareholders within the respective legislation and environment. Employees' feelings or quality of life do not matter. Never have, never will. On occasion a company will treat employees better than in the past, but only if market forces dictate."

I think you are in a world of your own.
Cathay in the 80's and 90's had School Fees, House Rental/Purchase, Travel Allowance, Junks, Holiday Houses, Medical Unit with Doctors and Nurses, Dentist Surgery and real Profit Share all for Staff.
Hence the Loyalty and ability to operate on a tight staff manning policy.

Nowadays there are still companies who benefit their staff. John Lewis, for example.

I used to think you sometimes spoke sense but I was mistaken.
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Old 14th Sep 2022, 15:46
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Yes, Best if you weren't living in my world.
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Old 21st Sep 2022, 05:51
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Very sad news. Few years back a sim instructor took his life. The CX stressful environment didn’t help. Au contraire….
Glad not there anymore. Life is normal in some part of the world and not working for CX have added back some years of health.

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Old 21st Sep 2022, 12:51
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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In our time BusyB we were run by the Swire brothers who had a paternalistic attitude to management. It worked very well in that cultural and industrial era, I would have walked over broken glass for those guys, they had the organisational touch. As you remember we would work to the limit of FTLs to keep the show on the road, knowing that in the background there were smart people on the ground doing 18 hour days to keep the airline going, in typhoons for example.

Then we got manageised. With the entrance of Mr. Eddington who had the instruction and mandate to take CX into the 21st century, with all that that might entail. The market forces that STW speaks of were beating at the door, and something needed to be done. "We need to break the squadron mentality of the pilots" was one director's outburst. And so it was, to the detriment of the paternalistic system, which encourages and rewards loyalty and expects dedication in return.

The story is told in many industries and companies, aviation was not an exception. Perhaps STW did not work under a system where we enjoyed going to work, worked our butts off and were rewarded in return.

Best to you in your retirement

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Old 21st Sep 2022, 14:22
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Cheers to you Anxiao,

STW does not seem to recognise that some other companies still treat their staff with some consideration. He is obviously happy to be treated the way CX wants and does not want to improve them.
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Old 21st Sep 2022, 18:18
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Not only that. He expects others to be happy to be treated like shit too and ridicules anyone who sees the world differently than he does.
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Old 21st Sep 2022, 23:50
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Wow Anxiao, spot on.

I have nothing to add. Other than that you have my utter respect.
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Old 22nd Sep 2022, 02:59
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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This is the same, sad tale across all industries. Employee effort was once encouraged with security and compensation in return.
The problem is that on a spreadsheet, this model costs more than doing business the other way, which is gaining compliance via threats and punishment.
CX is probably the worst example of this.
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Old 22nd Sep 2022, 03:57
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Of course it has.
What you're saying is correct, and I also understand that many people who have dedicated their lives to the profession are going to have a hard time seeing it go that way.
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Old 22nd Sep 2022, 04:21
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong
Have you fine gentlemen ever considered that maybe, just maybe, aviation as an industry has changed?
Have you fine “sir” ever considered there was and is another option than to resign yourself to your defeatist attitude?
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Old 22nd Sep 2022, 05:56
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We went down that road many times and my conclusion is that you couldn’t be bothered to stick your neck out for the betterment of your “beloved” profession.
Hence my assessment of your “defeatist” attitude.
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Old 22nd Sep 2022, 11:18
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STW,

Are you really claiming that all companies in our current time Lie, Break Contracts and Break local laws?
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Old 22nd Sep 2022, 13:08
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong
If they can get away with it, yes, of course.

It all depends on demand and supply of workers. Companies are only nice if not being nice would block necessary human resources or risk a costly public backlash, reduce productivity etc. For instance, it might be actually beneficial for a company to deliberately illegally brake a contract or law if the repercussions are less costly than the status quo. Law suits are part of the business, they are just another strategic instrument. So are fines, just part of the business. Also keep in mind, in HK many of the practices most pilots call illegal are probably even legit, e.g "breaking" an employment contract and replacing it with another one.
This is how it has worked at the big Middle East 3, since 2005. Nice when the pilot force is lean, bonus paid, pay increase, lots of respect. When the pilot force is abundant, no bonus, no pay increase and a slash of conditions if they can get away with it. It’s atrocious but seems to be the way business is done these days.
It’s a cycle that will continue until the profession of being an airline pilot is reduced to nothing more than a city bus driver. Nothing against being a bus driver but you don’t have to spend 40k$ to learn to be a bus driver.
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Old 22nd Sep 2022, 13:35
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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STW I agree with your point about:

<it might be actually beneficial for a company to deliberately illegally brake (sic) a contract or law if the repercussions are less costly than the status quo. Law suits are part of the business, they are just another strategic instrument. So are fines, just part of the business.>

In a tense discussion with a DFO some 20+ years ago I asked if he was satisfied with the number of law suits that were being fought by labour against Cathay. His reply was that they expect to lose half of the cases, but that was in the budget. My rejoinder was to ask him if he was content to operate the airline 50% outside of the law, and should we operate Flight Operations the same way. The meeting broke up very shortly after that...

When you are well educated and brought up, then aviation trained, the concept of breaking so many laws as part of your business model was anathema to me.

Awful, Awful Awful.


Last edited by anxiao; 23rd Sep 2022 at 00:03.
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Old 22nd Sep 2022, 23:28
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder if anyone takes into account what the I'll will created in the employees costs then each year due to such business practices. When you claim in a business sense such practices are justified or understandable because it costs the company less, you must realize how it affects the attitude and behavior of employees regarding caring for the company's bottom line.

The amount of fuel I could have saved for cathay over the decades easily goes into millions. It would have cost them a small fraction of that in money and treatment for me to care enough to save. They didn't. They quickly set the tone and I acted accordingly.

So no, a business does not save money with Cathay like behavior. Im proof of that and I'm only one of many many.
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Old 23rd Sep 2022, 02:55
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Originally Posted by VforVENDETTA
I wonder if anyone takes into account what the I'll will created in the employees costs then each year due to such business practices. When you claim in a business sense such practices are justified or understandable because it costs the company less, you must realize how it affects the attitude and behavior of employees regarding caring for the company's bottom line.

The amount of fuel I could have saved for cathay over the decades easily goes into millions. It would have cost them a small fraction of that in money and treatment for me to care enough to save. They didn't. They quickly set the tone and I acted accordingly.

So no, a business does not save money with Cathay like behavior. Im proof of that and I'm only one of many many.
Overall negligible.
The difference between a company loving pilot, and a pilot who wants to cause financial damage while remaining legal (i.e. don't break SOP) is nothing, compared to the amount of cost reduced by slashing everyone's conditions.
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Old 23rd Sep 2022, 12:34
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Originally Posted by G Merch
Overall negligible.
The difference between a company loving pilot, and a pilot who wants to cause financial damage while remaining legal (i.e. don't break SOP) is nothing, compared to the amount of cost reduced by slashing everyone's conditions.
Without violation of any SOPs , yes its easily possible to cost the company more than one's entire salary,, each month. All it takes is exactly the type of employee treatment cathay is well known for. Not asking for or accepting directs, taxiing slow, no reti or at the last few feet, being on an A day (10hr callout) pax flight has one guy call sick they beg you to show up in 4 hours you're the only option and you say 10hrs and flight gets badly delayed calculate the cost of that in so many ways worst of all pax losing shine on company. Do the math on just theirs of returning business. There's a lot more, this is just examples. For instance, it costs cx 20 times more just in fuel costs for every minute added to a block time than the pilots get paid per minute. But yet some idiot cx manager decided to do away with block guarantee thinking it would save money, not knowing why block guarantee was introduced by airlines back in the day, exactly to save money.

Loss of good will always costs the companies more than what they presume to save by such treatment. It's very bad and incompetent management to think otherwise.

Last edited by VforVENDETTA; 23rd Sep 2022 at 13:28.
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Old 23rd Sep 2022, 13:03
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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When you remember incidents like the SO Instructors and the contract they had that was well broken ( as ruled in court) it is an example of total contempt for staff not seen with any other company. The more pathetic aspect of this were the personal promises and assurance previously given by the management to induce them to help CX .
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Old 23rd Sep 2022, 15:02
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Originally Posted by BusyB
When you remember incidents like the SO Instructors and the contract they had that was well broken ( as ruled in court) it is an example of total contempt for staff not seen with any other company. The more pathetic aspect of this were the personal promises and assurance previously given by the management to induce them to help CX .
Yes exactly. Just imagine how much the ill will created in each of those individuals would cost cathay throughout their career with cathay,, if cathay were to survive and they were to stay at this point.

Imagine how efficient and caring the upcoming replacement pilots will be when it hits them flat in the face how cos 18 pay and benefits are utterly inadequate to live on in hk. How does that ill will serve cathay? It'll cost them operating costs of all kinds.

Last edited by VforVENDETTA; 23rd Sep 2022 at 21:38.
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