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Pilot Shortage in Hong Kong

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Pilot Shortage in Hong Kong

Old 8th Jul 2022, 01:53
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You militant guys certainly have thin skins and seemingly need to resort to abusive personal attacks on those who express reasoned but different views !
For the record I have several friends who for many years enjoyed packages recently (last say 5/7 years) of upwards of HK$4 million including benefits
It would perhaps be interesting to many to know what other top airlines with decent modern fleets are offering better stable and readily available packages at your current level working in what is generally deemed to be a civilised and safe environment.
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Old 8th Jul 2022, 01:56
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Between the HK Government restrictions at outports (yes, we’re still prisoners and the HK government loves having this power) and Swire / Cathay’s approach, hellbent on destroying the pilot body both professionally and personally, unless you want to spend the rest of your life in misery and have a company and an over zealous government control every aspect of your life then by all means apply!
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Old 8th Jul 2022, 03:02
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Originally Posted by veryoldchinahand View Post
You militant guys certainly have thin skins and seemingly need to resort to abusive personal attacks on those who express reasoned but different views !
For the record I have several friends who for many years enjoyed packages recently (last say 5/7 years) of upwards of HK$4 million including benefits
It would perhaps be interesting to many to know what other top airlines with decent modern fleets are offering better stable and readily available packages at your current level working in what is generally deemed to be a civilised and safe environment.
It's all very well claiming that Cathay's salary packages were out of step with industry norms, but that's like comparing apples with oranges. Cathay Pacific only ever provided expat benefits because it could not source sufficient pilots in Hong Kong. It had to attract expat pilots and therefore needed to provide housing and education allowances to offset the cost of living in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Without those benefits, a Cathay pilot's after tax salary is no better than many other major airlines, yet the Cathay pilot living in Hong Kong has a much higher cost of living than pilots living elsewhere. If you were an expat pilot considering a job in Hong Kong, or an expat pilot living in Hong Kong and about to face a massive reduction in benefits, what would you do in a world where there are other opportunities?

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Old 8th Jul 2022, 05:36
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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in what is generally deemed to be a civilised and safe environment.
Think you may have to review that in the light of the place being reduced to the status of a 4 th tier Chinese police state.
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 02:03
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I don't believe so Menelaus. Your justification for this rather empty remark is what may I ask ?

BuzzBox I don't for a moment disagree that Cathay only offered very enticing expat packages in order to attract needed pilots. It is what what expanding businesses do and to a degree this happing again now.
It rather astounds me that many of you here cannot seem to grasp that Cathay is a business not a government department and as such has a first obligation to share holders to do what is needed to survive in the very difficult prevailing circumstances.
No amount of whining and foot stamping here is going to change that and as any impartial observer would be bound to conclude Cathay is done a much better job of looking after is employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going than most .
Of course its not easy or 'fair' but then it never was.
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 02:24
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What office on the third floor do you inhabit veryoldchinahand...?
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 02:47
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Originally Posted by veryoldchinahand View Post
I don't believe so Menelaus. Your justification for this rather empty remark is what may I ask ?

BuzzBox I don't for a moment disagree that Cathay only offered very enticing expat packages in order to attract needed pilots. It is what what expanding businesses do and to a degree this happing again now.
It rather astounds me that many of you here cannot seem to grasp that Cathay is a business not a government department and as such has a first obligation to share holders to do what is needed to survive in the very difficult prevailing circumstances.
No amount of whining and foot stamping here is going to change that and as any impartial observer would be bound to conclude Cathay is done a much better job of looking after is employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going than most .
Of course its not easy or 'fair' but then it never was.
VOCH, the point you’re missing is that you, me, and every other pilot employed are HUMANS, some with little HUMANS, and older HUMANS (probably older than you) that have human needs and require adequate levels of compensation. Hire robots, pay them once and work them forever if Cathay is “just a business”. And “looking after their employees”? Riding them like mules? Some camps in the ‘40’s did the same to their ‘employees’
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 03:18
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MM. Shouting irrelevant nonsense from the distant sidelines as usual.....too hot for the lawn bowling I suppose !
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 03:24
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Originally Posted by veryoldchinahand View Post
MM. Shouting irrelevant nonsense from the distant sidelines as usual.....too hot for the lawn bowling I suppose !
it’s all relevant. And who’s MM?
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 03:54
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Papa123 I understand your argument well. Few are older than me and I suggest few have worked harder to make a decent living in Hong Kong.
Judging from your joining date I suspect that you are a young fellow yet to learn that the the world does not owe you a living and making a living in these difficult times actually hard work for less reward than most of us have come to expect. As I presume that you are no way indentured to the airline but do actually work for Cathay I suggest that you get on with things or look for better pastures although these you will agree, I am sure are very difficult to find at the present time.
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 04:09
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Papa123 Not wishing to mislead I should make the point above that I am no longer formally working for anyone having reached the vast age where I am no longer considered by some to be competent. But I am still working and they are of course all wrong !
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 04:11
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=veryoldchinahand;11273733.....to conclude Cathay is done a much better job of looking after is employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going than most .
[/QUOTE]

You mean like Cathay Dragon?
They certainly did a good job looking after "is" employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going - indeed better than most!
No other airline could have done it in that way, that's for sure.
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 05:17
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by veryoldchinahand View Post
Papa123 I understand your argument well. Few are older than me and I suggest few have worked harder to make a decent living in Hong Kong.
Judging from your joining date I suspect that you are a young fellow yet to learn that the the world does not owe you a living and making a living in these difficult times actually hard work for less reward than most of us have come to expect. As I presume that you are no way indentured to the airline but do actually work for Cathay I suggest that you get on with things or look for better pastures although these you will agree, I am sure are very difficult to find at the present time.
Typical China, don’t know who I am how I got here, or what station I’m presently in - but unabashedly offer up ‘life lessons’ from your own perceived sense of superiority. Back to the post - you suggested we ‘get nothing and like it because - just business’. I say no, there is value to our effort - which is currently not being recognized. I didn’t say they OWE me anything, nor I to them.
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 08:09
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by veryoldchinahand View Post
I don't for a moment disagree that Cathay only offered very enticing expat packages in order to attract needed pilots. It is what what expanding businesses do and to a degree this happing again now.
Are you claiming that, “to a degree”, Cathay is currently offering “very enticing expat packages” to attract pilots? If the current package is so attractive, why are so many pilots leaving for other pastures?
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 09:08
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[QUOTE=veryoldchinahand;11273733]I don't believe so Menelaus. Your justification for this rather empty remark is what may I ask ?UNQUOTE]

Well let’s see shall we ?

A transformation ( in very short order) from a society where free speech was the norm, and our press and civil liberties were the envy of many in Asia, to one where a new security and sedition law means that one can be seized in the night, and shipped over the border for a touch of rough justice, by our Communist overlords. Just for espousing the “wrong” view.
That some of this was accelerated by the riots (and I’m still not fully convinced that much of it was not fomented by our friends over the border to force the issue) is undeniable. That said, the very fact that organized, peaceful demonstrations and marches ( once a hallmark of HK ) have been banned forthwith and forever is yet another sign of heavy handedness, and the destruction of all civil liberties.

Disbandment and effective neutering of all trade Union movements and associations ( again I’d be the first to admit that they were hardly the NUM) but some, such as the MTR Union, offered decent protections.

A farce of an election ( with one sole candidate, remind you of anywhere nearby ? ) for CE. Said candidate a rabid supporter of Beijing and their methods. So an ideal shoe in for for a 4th tier city.

Rapid haemorrhaging of talent.

A society where it is considered the norm to lock up its citizens, including babies and children, in quasi concentration camps in an half arsed attempt to achieve a zero covid policy whilst the rest of the World moves on.

A government that considers it acceptable to allow its Health Dept to mandate effective solitary confinement for its pilot work force, having spent 15 hours in an aluminium/ composite tube, then require them to wear tracking bracelets as though they’re rapists or paedophiles on early release.
And to add insult to injury subject them
to a draconian testing regime for days after. And rinse and repeat. That quite so many individuals have put up with this for quite so long beggars belief and says a fair bit about Stockholm syndrome.

If all the above ( and there are of course more ) are not the very epitomy of life under a CCCP dictatorship, I don’t know what is.
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Old 6th Aug 2022, 09:16
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Originally Posted by Stone Temple Pilot View Post
You mean like Cathay Dragon?
They certainly did a good job looking after "is" employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going - indeed better than most!
No other airline could have done it in that way, that's for sure.
They did look after 8 of the KA employee's. I believe only 6 remain, mostly on the 3rd floor.

The rest of us were thrown out with the trash.
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Old 7th Aug 2022, 00:51
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by veryoldchinahand View Post
I don't believe so Menelaus. Your justification for this rather empty remark is what may I ask ?

BuzzBox I don't for a moment disagree that Cathay only offered very enticing expat packages in order to attract needed pilots. It is what what expanding businesses do and to a degree this happing again now.
It rather astounds me that many of you here cannot seem to grasp that Cathay is a business not a government department and as such has a first obligation to share holders to do what is needed to survive in the very difficult prevailing circumstances.
No amount of whining and foot stamping here is going to change that and as any impartial observer would be bound to conclude Cathay is done a much better job of looking after is employees, preserving jobs and keeping the airline going than most .
Of course its not easy or 'fair' but then it never was.
If survival is the basis for your argument VOCH maybe you could have a word with our CEO, Tang concurs, and puts it plainly: “The sur*vivability of Cathay Pacific has never been on my mind.” and while you are, explain to him that a temporary reduction in earnings would probably have been accepted by most.

What you have witnessed VOCH, is a smash and grab, it is a strategy put in place by some senior leaders and it appears to be failing. Will management now need to cover their short?
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Old 7th Aug 2022, 04:09
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The value of every company is based largely on its assets. Assets which make profit, for the owners who own stock in that company. Less of those assets or worse shape of those assets result in less profit. The value of the company is what drives the stock price. The shareholders take direct benefit from that above all others, including the employees, which can be labeled as "cost units" or "profit units" depending on the competence of management.

Unhappy, un-taken care of, demoralized, angry, stressed, bankrupt pilots in this case are much less efficient and much less reliable or caring as before. Even that delapitated , demoralized, inefficient work force is declining at an uncomfortable rate without any success of replacing them despite having announced and started a big recruitment drive almost a year ago.

Without this asset which has to be there to operate the other very expensive assets (fleet of aircraft) that asset set also languishes in utter inefficiency. All other assets will be in the same boat, they are as we speak.

Tell me how happy the "shareholders" of this pennystock taco stand are when one of the assets which is impossible to operate the airline without (it's most expensive to attract, train & replace people) are in such terrible shape and such out of control dwindling numbers?

Sure ots all about the owners, called sharehilders. But the stock price is all about the company's value. Value is all about the assets which are necessary to produce profit. In case of an airline, to fly airplanes, enough to be able to maintain market share and perhaps expand market share where profit making opportunities are recognized.

As with any business... fukk your people and you've fukked your profit (shareholders).

Cathay's plan was to be back at 60% operation by September, then 50% by December. Both shut down by manpower planning due to not enough pilots. Can't retrain fast enough to replace pilots on flying fleets fron the non-flying fleet either. As soon as they become current, they leave for another job.

How are you doing shareholders? Enjoying the ride downhill? Enjoy it while it lasts...
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Old 7th Aug 2022, 04:26
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Average 777 pilot isn't flying at all.
Average Airbus pilot is doing 45 hours.

Only the 747 guys are flying reasonable hours.
No 747's parked.

Hkg isn't really opening any time soo. Thus cx is a cargo airline for the foreseeable future.

So - There's no shortage of pilots.

There's 2500 guys on the seniority list.

Costs to hire and train new pilots as we slowly open up over the next two or more years will be a billion dollars plus - however they've saved double that on cos18 and everyone that quit over the past two years...

I fail to see the problem...

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Old 7th Aug 2022, 04:38
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Originally Posted by missingblade View Post
Average 777 pilot isn't flying at all.
Average Airbus pilot is doing 45 hours.

Only the 747 guys are flying reasonable hours.
No 747's parked.

Hkg isn't really opening any time soo. Thus cx is a cargo airline for the foreseeable future.

So - There's no shortage of pilots.

There's 2500 guys on the seniority list.

Costs to hire and train new pilots as we slowly open up over the next two or more years will be a billion dollars plus - however they've saved double that on cos18 and everyone that quit over the past two years...

I fail to see the problem...
missing. You’ll do another 2 or more years under this circus? For what? The PAY? The TRAVEL OPPORTUNITIES. Why so quick to side and equivocate with management direction. You like it better now, those ‘smart’ moves to push Cos18?
sycophant you.
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