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Ex KA captains being offered JFO position

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Ex KA captains being offered JFO position

Old 16th Jul 2021, 06:29
  #101 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Aust
Posts: 261
Hard work, you guys have no idea.

Try the 737-200 into PRC in the 80's. No FMS, magenta lines, map displays, GPS, RNAV approaches, TCAS, ACARS, fuel predictions, nearest airports, only two destinations with ILS but no approach lights, all other destinations with NDB only approaches to 400'agl, needed homemade timing device to configure before reaching minima, no VASI or approach lights, no piano keys or 1000" markings only an unlit "landing T", whatever that meant. ATC virtually non existent, constant frequency jammed in Mandarin or Cantonese, sometimes they just wouldn't answer at all, near misses, had a few we saw but who knows in that lousy weather. No roaming if we needed to contact the company, had to be a phone patch through HF, took forever. Best part was inbound seeing the lights on the border with HKG, could see them from 100 miles out on a good night, only viable alternate was goo-gan-zoo and they would only accept 3 or 4 diverting aircraft.

By the mid 90's we had all the good stuff and a multitude of new airports replacing the old Nanjing, Hangzhou, Chengdu, Pudong, later Goo-gan-zoo and numerous upgraded ones like Kunming and Xiamen. An absolute piece of cake by comparison although still unique and ATC remained a problem.

Out of interest I also did a check and typically 160 sectors in and out of the PRC was typical in around 1990 and how we looked forward to a Japan, Thailand or Nepal trip. In those days management guys did their fair share and didn't pick the eyes out of the roster.
deja vu is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 06:45
  #102 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 103
Can only respect that post...
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Old 16th Jul 2021, 08:02
  #103 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 183

it was rather the other way around, calling cx inept in China basically.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 01:50
  #104 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: hong kong
Posts: 3
I like how everyone has forgotten about the 103 CX pilots that got made redundant last October, some being locals and others on work visas. Why isn't there any talk about these guys who have been shifted by all these ex KA guys?
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 08:42
  #105 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Wan Chai
Posts: 255
They were the fresh pilots. No time in the company and everyone is trying to save their own behind.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 08:44
  #106 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: HK
Posts: 35
They have more time with the company than those ex KA guys. I do think the local redundant SO should be rehired before any Ex KA

Last edited by doublelift; 20th Jul 2021 at 09:37.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 08:48
  #107 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: HK
Posts: 7
What did the regulator and insurance company say about percentage of pilots and hours on type when setting-up a new fleet (albeit CCQable)?
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 09:12
  #108 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 25

Makes sense that these non-resident one-stripers, laid off while on probation (?) should operate the many KA airbuses to all the KA destinations ahead of 20+ years senior guys who have clearly not contributed to the company at all in comparison.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 09:55
  #109 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 51
Posts: 233
They should all fight it out, MMA style. Winners get seats. Losers become cabin crew.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 14:22
  #110 (permalink)  

Join Date: May 2001
Location: Some hole
Posts: 2,062
Stone Temple Pilot

They had PR, not on probation. Ask around where the handful of KA guys ended up on the CX seniority list, and rethink your comment who was senior.

Mandatory requirements were
"A Hong Kong Permanent resident
Graduated from secondary school with good passes in English language, Mathematics or Science; a degree in any discipline will also be considered provided you meet the secondary school criteria.
Physically fit and qualified for a Civil Aviation Department (HKCAD) Class 1 Medical Certificate
Able to meet our flight deck reach requirements
Achieve ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) English Language Proficiency level 4 or above
Aged 18 years or above"

Pre-COVID more than 110 airlines competed into HKIA which makes it one of the most competitive airports in the world, have you ever stopped to think why every gate in HKIA is generic ? This notion of a "KA destination" has been incorrectly thrown around most if not all of the destinations served by KA were already on the CX licence, almost all of the destinations were approved to multiple HKG carriers. Airlines operate where they generate the greatest return on investment, KA had multiple ports on there licence for 20 plus years which have never seen a commercial airline service with HKG for example Meixian, Qiqihar, Pune, Bishkek. There is no requirement in HKG to operate a particular route for it to be on the licence, the commercial viability is another matter. The Hong Kong Express licence has almost double the destinations as KA had.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 14:37
  #111 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 65
The CX Skygods swinging their weenies around and banging their fists, while their London base is about to close. What a sad, sad bunch you are.

The last bit of mongrels fighting for the scraps.
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Old 20th Jul 2021, 23:38
  #112 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,943

Think your clowns started up about post #7. Stating their mates in check and training would fail ex-KA pilots. Then, soon after, the odd reference to KA pilots being skygods which usually fits the boot of legacy pilots. But anyways. More often than not, here on FH, its trans-generational abuse, with CX pilots labelling their colleagues as inept. You've been toxic for a long time. Now delusional too. Still banging on about seniority. I wouldn't be surprised if someone raises a previous scope clause right for CX pilots.

Personally, wish you all well. My best advice would be for you to realise how low you have gone. It's your only hope ( if CX survives ).
Gnadenburg is online now  
Old 21st Jul 2021, 00:11
  #113 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 183
Iím really sorry you feel that way, from my perspective it seemed like Cx pilots were called inept.
I have nothing but respect for dragon pilots.
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Old 21st Jul 2021, 00:13
  #114 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Hk
Posts: 54
Could be lower, could be out of a job.
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Old 21st Jul 2021, 07:04
  #115 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 25
swh - you miss my point completely.

doublelift is talking about the small percentage of laid off - very junior - CX pilots having "more time with the company than those ex KA guys".

Through my ironic comment, I meant to be saying that the 20+ year senior KA guys have contributed far more to the company and shown decades of loyalty. To hint otherwise is a slap in the face to your ex-colleagues (anyway, at least I thought we were ex-colleagues, sharing the same crew room, same "hub", "moving beyond" together, same dream, same team, no?).
Point being that KA pilots were always told we were part of the team, part of the company - until all of a sudden we obviously weren't.

Your mentioning about the various destinations, all that I'm very well aware of, serves no point either.
Fact was that these KA routes were lining Cathay's pockets, we were part of the company and we were not in competition...hence my mentioning of KA destinations, all of which are conveniently taken over by CX together with all the aircraft, to be flown by CX own (junior) crew.

What CX seniority list by the way?
This is not about where you end up on a non-existing seniority list, but about the time you have given Cathay and the rewards you reap as a result of your long lasting loyalty.
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Old 21st Jul 2021, 08:43
  #116 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Aust
Posts: 261
Hard to sympathise with a bunch of miserable newbies trying to get the HKID to ban their colleagues, what a low act, why would we be surprised though.
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Old 21st Jul 2021, 09:00
  #117 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: hong kong
Posts: 3
I know many people who are part of that 103 group, and I can tell you that those guys having gone through Adelaide, left their families or had brought their families to HKG and have been cut like that followed by being shifted by people from the outside cx.. is pretty harsh, so if you can't be somewhat empathetic to that then I don't know what will.
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Old 21st Jul 2021, 10:19
  #118 (permalink)  

Join Date: May 2001
Location: Some hole
Posts: 2,062

The Cathay Pacific Group had four airlines, Hong Kong Express Airways Limited (UO), AHK Air Hong Kong Limited (LD), Hong Kong Dragon Airlines Limited (KA), and Cathay Pacific Airways Limited (CX). KA pilots were not employed by CX, they were employed by KA, the same way UO pilots are employed by UO not CX. The various pilots across bases that have been let go, and the pilots made redundant were employed by CX. KA was a valued part of the group, and their employees earned the mutual respect of other employees in the group, it would however be a misrepresentation to suggest that a KA employee was a CX employee, or a UO employee is a CX employee.

The best analogy I can give you is IAG group (Air Lingus, British Airways, Iberia, Level, and Vueling), IAG closed down OpenSkies their airline based out of Paris last year due COVID. BA also made many pilots redundant due COVID. The argument you are putting forward is like saying the pilots that were out of job when Openskies closed down that have the right to work in the UK should be employed by BA because they were part of the IAG group. Not only should they be employed by BA, they should be employed before the pilots BA made redundant were rehired because they are older.
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Old 21st Jul 2021, 13:45
  #119 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bottom of the Harbour
Posts: 302
So we can say that ASL and the original AHK with the classics was the same model, but it was a misrepresentation to think they were CX pilots? But strangely they joined the CX seniority?

Justifying why you have a job over someone else is subjective, company boards will work an outcome anyway they want. CoS18 seems to help support their cause now segregating fleet, regardless of company…

Do we need to raise the base issue, same company but wrong location…

Long bow to draw my friend..

Last edited by KABOY; 21st Jul 2021 at 14:06.
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Old 21st Jul 2021, 22:17
  #120 (permalink)  

Join Date: May 2001
Location: Some hole
Posts: 2,062
It is not the same, look at the front page of your licence, it will say Hong Kong Dragon Airlines Limited, ASL, VETA, US Basing, Canadian Basing, EU basing, UK Basing, Australian basing etc will say Cathay Pacific Airways Limited.

Ask your colleagues that are now with Air Hong Kong, the front page of their licence will say AHK Air Hong Kong Limited .

Last edited by swh; 21st Jul 2021 at 22:27.
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