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Ex KA captains being offered JFO position

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Ex KA captains being offered JFO position

Old 7th Jul 2021, 17:41
  #41 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: HK
Posts: 12
Can’t agree more!

Since when ppl start thinking they really own the company after signing the “shameful” COS18? Remember all the right you lost and your allowance is coming to an end very soon.

Everyone just an ERN.
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 19:32
  #42 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bonvoy Marriott
Posts: 146
Dingleberry Handpump

They are now…. But they didn’t used to..
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 22:18
  #43 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Hk
Posts: 36
maybe you should get a job with them then..
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 22:21
  #44 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Wan Chai
Posts: 232

In the real world the NEO differences is a PowerPoint slide. I wouldn’t exactly call it proper training. There are no mandatory sims or any other useful requirements. It’s still a 320 series with minimal changes.
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 22:26
  #45 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,925

There are a few posts on this thread that carry similar sentiments. I find many delusional. You seem to have forgotten what you've signed and given the unprecedented circumstances of the pandemic, hold dearly to what you have, with a misperceived legacy pilot glory. However, are Cathay pilots still legacy standard pilots? The contract has deteriorated so dramatically, it's too early to define where CX pilots will actually sit when aviation rebounds. Many of my CX friends are leaving and the ones who can't are oddly eating into their savings in hope!

An experienced pilot will not find China difficult to fly in. Having been stuck behind Cathay jets for 20 years going into Hong Kong, as they often sit low and slow, sometimes on the TCAS peripherals, perhaps the best approach for China is to fly as the Chinese carriers do? It looks rank-amateur, but as you are paid similar to mainland pilots, Green Dot at 20 miles will not only keep you out of trouble, but also keep the dollars ticking over. CX don't fly visual approaches nor circle as KA did, so perhaps dumbing down the 320 operation with speed restrictions a useful tool to avoid transitionary issues into China and onto the narrow-body?

China needs to be viewed holistically. Over the years, at 300K a month, 10 weeks leave etc, a KA pilot would still be mentally done. It all gets too much. Some snapped, some just packed up quietly and left. It's the remote hotels, where you can not find food, where the government regulates the room temperature to 24 degrees in winter and you can't rest, the grind, the delays undetermined. This is the first sector. Two more to go to complete your 13 hour day. Now, I look at your contract and the seriousness with which you seem to take yourself and I can see why nobody I know, former KA, applied to CX. It's not tenable for many.

Adding to all this, the world has changed, China has changed. KA pilots well-handled being targeted during the civil disturbances in Hong Kong. Ramp checks and being monitored and reported for any indiscretion. It may well be plain hostile in the future.

So I hope you can see China isn't just about pulling off a simple intercept from above into KMG, it's going to get into the heads of a lot of people, especially on the contract you've signed.

maybe that was the case in KA but in CX you expected to behave like a future captain in any seat.
This brings us back to KMG and many former KA pilots will have a laugh. The famous CX exchange pilot we were sent, botched the approach and blamed the F/O on the ground for not explaining the traps of the approach.

But here's tip for three sectors into China. Don't worry about the silliness of having a 200hr pilot behave like a Captain. Relax a bit. You'll wear out your crew- if the white noise hadn't already done so.
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Old 7th Jul 2021, 23:31
  #46 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: in denial
Posts: 274
Good past Gnadenburg. But to be fair, the CX exchange pilot we sent you was hardly our finest. Hence why he’s spent most of his CX career hiding in management roles
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Old 8th Jul 2021, 03:21
  #47 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: GUAM
Posts: 9
Nice one Gnadenburg. The hard pill to swallow isn't having to go from 4-bars to 2. Nor is it having to 'babysit' a 777 skipper who has had little experience flying in the PRC. Both sides can adapt to the flying with ease. We are professionals and I am sure the common distaste for the company would be a real icebreaker and team bonding experience.

The real hard pill is having to do the same job for a lot less money. It will be tough to stay motivated having to wait 12-15 years for command. How do you keep the donkey running when you don't even offer a proper carrot.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the KA guys leave after getting a free rating renewal and some seat time.
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Old 8th Jul 2021, 04:46
  #48 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: hang on let me check
Posts: 629
I think the magnitude of the storm we are in is still not clear to many people
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Old 8th Jul 2021, 06:19
  #49 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 186

I never disputed that…. However, differences training is required in one form or another , and many of the young local TYPE RATED Ka pilots pushing the issue of re employment have completed all the training required. They have obviously presented a solid case, as was proven by the IMMD putting their foot down. Cx’s 321 training procedures are a carbon copy of the Ka procedures, the reason they employed the top brass Ka training managers. I take my hat off to the captains joining as fo’s…people need jobs, especially younger pilots that are only starting their careers, families, life in general. These pilots have swallowed enough of their pride, being ‘employed’ by the company that effectively destroyed their past, flying the aircraft they were bound to fly, on a route network they have been part of for years, in a lesser rank for half the money, to be greeted with the animosity shown in this thread and many others is absolutely ludicrous.
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Old 8th Jul 2021, 06:44
  #50 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 165
There was no 'animosity' until it was suggested they should start their position in their old rank. That is not real world thinking.
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Old 8th Jul 2021, 08:26
  #51 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 53
Posts: 204
When will we finally accept that our individual differences, skills and experience levels are irrelevant?

A career in this industry is largely down to luck and maybe a bit of risk taking. You are either at the right time at the right place or you ain't.

Be kind to those in a worse position, chances are you will be next.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 8th Jul 2021 at 09:10.
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Old 8th Jul 2021, 17:52
  #52 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Hk
Posts: 36

Correct. Obviously those who have to wax-lyrical about how difficult it is to fly in the mainland are revealing more about themselves.

KA was folded. Their guys & girls are sadly unemployed. Those looking to join another airline as an employee will start at the bottom - including at CX. Sorry, thats how it works.
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Old 8th Jul 2021, 20:02
  #53 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 304
That is not how it works at CX. DEFO is not starting at the bottom, it is shafting the SOs.
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Old 8th Jul 2021, 22:04
  #54 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Hk
Posts: 36
Yes I’m quite aware of that. It’s been thus for a very long time. The point I was making was that anyone joining CX is doing so through the usual, long-standing arrangement.
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Old 9th Jul 2021, 06:23
  #55 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,925
Dingleberry Handpump

The Mainland is tough. It takes its toll. It helps if you are very comfortable with the aeroplane. You can take that or leave it.

I can happily report, KA pilots are being re-employed. I'd say at a guess about 10% of our former Captains have been re-hired. Pretty amazing because its barren out there. All that I know have been rehired as Direct Entry Captains. Including eight at Cathay Pacific.

If you re-read your own posts you may see why many would think you are delusional. I don't wish you malice, but the contract you signed clearly opens the way for DEC's at Cathay. Will that option be exercised?
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Old 9th Jul 2021, 06:31
  #56 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: In a suitcase
Posts: 38
Why is it that Aviation is the only industry where if you change employers then you have to start at the bottom? It doesn't happen for lawyers, doctors etc. I can only see it as harming ourselves.
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Old 9th Jul 2021, 08:25
  #57 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 130
Because of the unions. In the west aviation is heavily heavily unionised. After the shambles of how Covid and everything was handled here I can see the benefits of strong unionisation. Wouldn't it be wonderful if companies stuck to their word and followed their contracts
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Old 9th Jul 2021, 14:32
  #58 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uae
Posts: 2,729
I was a training captain at 3 airlines , all 3 I started at the bottom as an FO. This thing about retaining Rank and position is ego . Those that can't deal with it wil struggle .
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Old 9th Jul 2021, 15:33
  #59 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Hk
Posts: 36

11075711]Dingleberry Handpump

The mainland isn’t tough. You do as you’re told. There’s a couple of quirks to it, but I can happily report that all of my former KA colleagues found it fairly straightforward.

Aside from the 320 EIS brigade, why would CX exercise DEC options? There are hundreds more skippers than needed, and that isn’t changing for years.
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Old 10th Jul 2021, 00:39
  #60 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 56
What a sad bunch you are! CX is not nearly out of trouble yet, and with no inidication of when travel will pick up many of you might be out of jobs a few months down the line anyway. And here you are throwing your toys out of the cot because there will be a DEFO in the right seat flying your shiny little new Neo’s into shithole China a few years down the line. Get a life!
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