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Ex KA captains being offered JFO position

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Ex KA captains being offered JFO position

Old 5th Jul 2021, 13:39
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Rabbit Hutch
Posts: 153
Correct Dan. De-merit points are the key.
Dragon Pacific is online now  
Old 5th Jul 2021, 22:56
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,946

Well done for getting a seniority clause in the contract you signed back in November 2020. Stops CX taking advantage of the DEC option.

The cadre of ex-KA A320 pilots in CX presided over a system that sustained a 100% command failure rate on the A320. This left plenty of experienced KA pilots scratching their heads. Granted, the TRG Dept changed direction significantly and many of those same guys responsible for the positive outcomes. However, now you have to add CX's woeful SOPs and management into the mix and the A320 operation becomes needlessly stressful in all the wrong areas. Perhaps this goes someways in explaining CX's poor record in China?
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Old 6th Jul 2021, 03:17
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lonely planet
Posts: 58
Dan Winterland

China is more of a frustrating place to fly rather than a 'high threat' environment. It's the only place in the world I've flown where you are under radar control a 100% of the time.
Oddball77 is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2021, 04:33
  #24 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: HK
Posts: 35
Dan Winterland

Asking experts for help but not paying for the expert money. If I was those KA guys, you pay me FO money I would just do an FO jobs, sat there and watching Captains **** up.
doublelift is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2021, 07:14
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 184
thats a very dangerous attitude to have.
fly1981 is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2021, 07:22
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 316
I am inclined towards keeping it safe, but not really helping much. Some demerit points and a ban from China would suit me fine. It is not as though I give a about the company, they have completely pissed away any good will.
controlledrest is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2021, 07:56
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Wan Chai
Posts: 259
Rather not walk away from a cocked up Mainland expedition with a warning letter. If anyone is going in thinking they can sit back and watch a Captain screw something up they won't have a long career with CX.
Rie is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2021, 09:56
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 129
Or any other airline. I'm sure the majority of ex KA people will have great attitudes and be good guys & gals sadly the few making the comments here are tarnishing the image of the group.
LLLQNH is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2021, 14:23
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Moonbase A
Posts: 26
And there you have it!
Again a massive own goal by CX.
Ex KA drivers thinking they are entitled to jobs in an airline they never worked for.
Just reading the comments above you can already see the massive CRM problems on the horizon.
”just do the FO job”
maybe that was the case in KA but in CX you expected to behave like a future captain in any seat.
Also had to laugh about the expert comment, China nowadays is just another place we fly to. Do as your told unless you don’t like it.
Demerit point have mostly been “awarded” on long haul flights, where sadly crew were too lazy to look at the map where an FIR starts or stops.
This is a training and experience issue and is resolved for a while.
I do hope that the majority of Ex KA bus drivers have the same mentality as the EX KA freighter drivers we have since 2008 because they are a pleasure to work with and get on with it, regardless the seat they are in.
sjimmy is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2021, 17:00
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 25

I can imagine it being just as galling as the thought of a 23/24 yr KA crew (who has had Hong Kong as their home for decades), who joined with significant previous and/or military time, now effectively being replaced by a spotty iCadet from Oz or SA or the UK, who spent 1-2 yrs with CX on work visa, flying the KA NEOs and 330s to all the former KA destinations.
The irony is in the eye of the beholder.
Stone Temple Pilot is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2021, 18:16
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Hk
Posts: 56
Except they’re flying CX aircraft on routes that CX deploy them on. KA don’t have any, because they don’t exist. There’s always a vacuum to fill when an airline closes.

I feel for the ex-KA guys, but the sense of entitlement in thinking they should stroll into a new airline at the position they enjoyed at their now defunct employer beggars belief.
Dingleberry Handpump is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2021, 20:26
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 25

Add another except...

Except it isn't really a new airline or a defunct employer per se, is it? We were effectively one airline.
Dragon was Cathay.
Cathay made sure of telling us that all the time on "the Hub" - about all our new aircraft (except they were always green in color), about all our new routes (except they were flown by green airplanes) and all about our People directors (except nobody knew who they were) and our Group Safety Department (that nobody knew where was located).
We never wanted to be "on the Hub", to have Cathay smeared all over the fuselage, to "go beyond" and be "part of the team" - while we were clearly NOT really part of the team (not even in the crew room as it turns out, interpreting a lot of attitudes on this forum)!

So, if we leave it at the assumption that CX now miraculously has come up with their own ideas for new routes and picked up some cheap airframes that a "defunct" airline has left behind;
Fair enough if Dragon was a loss making airline, heading for bankruptcy.
It would close down because it was effectively "defunct" as you call it. Cathay could pick up the pieces. Fine by me. We could have seen the writing on the wall.
But that was not really the case either, was it?
Dragon was the money maker, full of the most loyal employees of the group, the airline's gold mine, and oh yes, dare I say it, was getting the highest IOSA audit results repeatedly.

So, effectively it was a company take-over.
In the real world, this is dealt with in accordance with a civilised suit of laws, full of respect and rights for the employees who have built this nest egg up over the years.

So yes, there is ABSOLUTELY a sense of entitlement. But NO rights or respect.

For a moment, please consider that HKE would take over CX next month: all long haul flown by HKE pilots, taking all the routes and the aircraft. All flown by South Americans on work visas with 3-4 years of seniority.
Would you not feel a sense of entitlement to follow your planes and routes to the group airline (effectively still Cathay) taking over your company?

That a few local (as in PR holding or passport holding locals) would join Cathay as a brand new employee on a piss poor salary, starting from scratch on the same airplane and routes they have flown for 10 years for the same airline, only beggars belief in one respect: That I personally wonder why on earth anybody would want to work for Cathay.

Cathay was, is and always will be toxic!

I wouldn't expect many to join for the same reason, stop your worries and look for an exit strategy yourself.

In all cases, I am a firm believer that there are no real positions available - clearly for me, this is only done to show the immigration department that they are actively recruiting and hence need to extent the work visas.
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Old 6th Jul 2021, 23:56
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Hk
Posts: 56
What they wrote on the Hub is irrelevant. KA was deliberately kept separate. It was a different entity and AOC. It has now closed.

I appreciate that in reality it was an in-house feeder, but that doesn’t matter. It was kept aside and has been closed.

Again, I feel for the KA crews. Out of interest, how would you merge two lists when one involves commands after a year versus one that has 12-13 year FOs waiting for their shot?

Surely you appreciate why CX guys would have feelings along that topic.

Personally, I would like to see the KA guys offered positions before externals; and I would gladly accept rank based on longevity. I think that’s fair. We chose CX and you chose KA.

to the pillocks that think I’ll struggle flying KA routes - get over yourselves. It’s a plane, and a country that is fundamentally easy to fly in. You do as you’re told unless you can’t. Nothing more. None of my friends who flew in China for the first time as contract skippers had any issues. 2 wings, some engines etc.
Dingleberry Handpump is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2021, 03:14
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: In your Head
Posts: 14

I sincerely hope that you are not a professional pilot.
Your proposed behavior leaves me speechless.
You sound more like a frequent traveler than an expert to me.
DrFaustus is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2021, 07:09
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bonvoy Marriott
Posts: 166
Dingleberry Handpump

Stone Temple Pilot would most likely be right if this had happened in “the West”.

KA had the same owners. Now CX uses KA airplanes to fly KA routes. 2 AOC’s would not have meant much. KLM and Cityhopper have two different AOC’s for example. And there are many more examples. This is a huge FU to all KA personnel involved!
SaulGoodman is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2021, 07:25
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Wan Chai
Posts: 259
Many of those KA wide bodies were ex CX... Thank god they scrapped HLJ.

I do note that the have made CX and UO very seperate right now. The employee of UO don't even have CX staff travel, they are forced to pay higher fares via MyID. Maybe learning from mistakes incase anyone tries to claim they deserve a job at CX just because they are owned by the same group.
Rie is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2021, 08:02
  #37 (permalink)  

Join Date: May 2001
Location: Some hole
Posts: 2,062

I must have blinked, when did KA operate the NEO ?
swh is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2021, 15:14
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Hk
Posts: 56

Cityhopper crew are on the same MSL as KLM.

Anyhow, the decision has been made, so folks need to get on with life. It doesn’t matter what you or I think..
Dingleberry Handpump is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2021, 15:38
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 184

they didn’t. However, most were 320/321 type rated… and most narrow body Ka pilots had completed all the Neo differences training.
fly1981 is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2021, 16:14
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Hk
Posts: 56
I’m sure it’ll be a massive struggle for mere 350/330 pilots. After all, there was a massive failure rate for the hundreds of 777 guys who crossed over to Airbus over the last 3.5 years.

Oh, wait…
Dingleberry Handpump is offline  

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