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Timing running out for CX management

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Timing running out for CX management

Old 24th May 2021, 00:10
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
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Timing running out for CX management

With more and more countries opening up for quarantine-free travel for vaccinated passengers, the end of the COVID opportunity is coming into sight.


In the past successive generations of managers have made their bonuses with incremental cuts. A Scale to B Scale to C Scale. New profit sharing formulae so no matter how big the profit, none is shared. No more 13th Month for aircrew. Even the Swire Junk got cut as a temporary cost shaving measure never to return. Salt and Pepper Shakers.

With COVID the managers have forced through POS18 in Hong Kong when there should have been redundancies in accordance with the contract. The only winners were the 300 hour wonders who had joined on POS18.

Now the Bases are to close (if you think they are still under review, you are delusional. The 'consultation process' is just to comply with various local laws). As the Bases are in first world labour law countries, the company lawyers have been particular clever. The Bases still have LIFO. To get around this the company is pretending that this isn't a redundancy situation. They claim there are slots available in HKG (hence the FCN on return to HKG - note for PR only as the company is not supporting Work Visa applicants of any sort), so they are not making anyone redundant, based pilots can choose this option. Otherwise they can return to HKG. Can't get a visa? Not our problem.

The based pilots with PR or HKG Passports who choose to return to HKG will push costs up in the short term (Aussi pilots are current on zero pay), but the company will have managed to break another contract, not followed LIFO, and got rid of a bunch of experienced aircrew.

Last edited by controlledrest; 24th May 2021 at 07:01.
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Old 24th May 2021, 03:59
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Join Date: Jun 2020
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Bye bye Merlin. Whos this new GUY
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Old 24th May 2021, 06:42
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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ControlledRest
The FCN you refer to is Voluntary Return to HKG. The key word is Voluntary
If you are faced with base closure, and the company offers you to return to HKG to keep your job, then CX must ensure your job is secure i.e. that they guarantee work permit etc certainly for more than 3 months. Otherwise it is a redundancy situation.
Your T&Cs in HKG have to be equal to your current T&Cs otherwise it is a degredation of your entitlements.
The Labor laws you refer to also have different interpretation of the Base Closure Clause in your T&Cs. A good example is AUS labor law allowed CX to pay ZERO salary, which is not legal in other "First Countries' " law.
CX can only do what its allowed to do under HKG law. Yes other countries are opening up, however "Zero COVID Policy" countries are being left behind. Nothing to do with how much top brass load their pockets with. As you say, they have always done this without scrutiny.
As for your comment about only 300 lucky ones were happy with CoS18. You're wrong simply because a lot more than 300 signed up to it because that's all they can do in order to put food on the table for their families, what's wrong with that?
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Old 24th May 2021, 07:09
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CX is not guaranteeing a work visa for the based guys. The guys I have spoken to without PR think the company is doing this now because it will lead to their redundancy out of contractual LIFO.

CX is not guaranteeing certainty for more than 3 months. They just say no further redundancies are planned at this stage.

CX is offering POS18 to the based guys, which certainly is a degradation of T&Cs.

Nothing against the guys who signed on to POS18. They were forced, even though the company pretends it was a choice for the vast majority.
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Old 24th May 2021, 07:12
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FlyingNun

Pretty quick on the trigger there, he said "300 hours" not literally 300 signed up to Cos18.
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Old 24th May 2021, 09:20
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Join Date: Dec 2020
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When POS19 first introduced, A/B/C scaler give zero about it, and just let the company forced juniors in signing the worst contract ever for CX pilots.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

Now, controlledrest is trying to say that they are the only happy group of pilots in CX because they are unaffected. They were just affected 3 years ago, way before covid and way before you did, what a selfish
bastard

Last edited by doublelift; 24th May 2021 at 09:35.
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Old 24th May 2021, 10:11
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Join Date: Oct 2018
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Thats not true at all, a lot of the current CX pilots did care about it but what can they do? FYI no one was forced at the time of introduction to sign Cos18 it was a new contract for new joiners not a single actual Cx pilot at the time of its introduction was made to sign. It was only for new hires, and like any job if you don't like the T&Cs then don't take the position.

Of course we all agree it's a terrible deal, but get your facts right.
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Old 24th May 2021, 10:18
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And if you’re going to quote Pastor Niemoller ( the bravest of men ) try and get it right !

Last edited by Globocnik; 24th May 2021 at 12:34.
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Old 24th May 2021, 20:21
  #9 (permalink)  
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doublelift

I always thought POS18 was terrible - because CX no longer cared about attracting experienced pilots. Anyone would do. It is not even a contract as everything is company policy. I thought it would be OK for someone with 300 hours of 172 time looking to get some jet time before finding a career job elsewhere. That is still the case.
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Old 25th May 2021, 08:01
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"Career job elsewhere" and please tell us where those jobs are exactly? Middle East packages have been slashed, Qantas international pilots have been decimated from zero pay (a little government subsidy) and Europe packages are a joke so please tell us Controlledrest where are those career pilot jobs....
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Old 25th May 2021, 20:37
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From the time of POS18 being introduced to COVID hitting the major career carries were all recruiting. If you had the required experience you would get an interview. I assisted several CX POS18 pilots with their applications and am please to report that these guys left CX and now work for good companies. Companies where they have taken concessions during COVID but will return to their previous conditions once the industry recovers.

Once populations are vaccinated travel will return and good jobs with good companies will again be available to those with the required experience, so POS18 is OK for a 300 hour 172 pilot wanting some jet time. Not much use for anything else.

At the moment there are stuff all jobs out there, so hanging onto any job, even if it meant taking POS18 was the only logical option (something the company knew and exploited). I'm too old to join another company at the bottom, so I'm hanging in there and waiting for contract commands to return.
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Old 25th May 2021, 23:22
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Join Date: Nov 2015
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Jobs

Firefly47

Perhaps Starbucks is more your style or are you waiting for someone from CX or the union (sic) to fill out application forms and do the research for you ?
Airline life is cyclical, always has been and always will be.. If it's not a stock market economic melt down it'll be another #CHINA virus..
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Old 26th May 2021, 05:40
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Do be fair! this one is a bit extreme !
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Old 26th May 2021, 15:49
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Join Date: May 2020
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CX managers mom so fat that when they jump for joy..... they got stuck.

Apologies to Russell Peters
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Old 8th Jun 2021, 23:14
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Join Date: Nov 2015
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Cathay Management and their Obstacles

As CX tries to "Rebrand" (again) and manoeuvres in an attempt to regain lost glory, the obstacles in the way are ominous and perhaps not navigable.. A massive part of CX sales was and always will be Corporations and the wealthy located in Hong Kong for the very reasons HK existed; it's stability and long standing legal and Justice systems.. Those, now under stress from outside forces..
Below is an article from the WSJ indicating just how hard the upstream fight to previous heavenly highs regarding their "primary profit demographic" may be and the obstacles that loom in the not to distant future..Food for thought..

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hong-ko...wn-11622998192
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Old 9th Jun 2021, 08:39
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WSJ is behind a paywall.
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Old 9th Jun 2021, 10:00
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just for now WSJ said .Apprehensive about Hong Kong’s future as the best place to do business in China and beyond, multinational firms are pulling up stakes, adding to uncertainty about the outlook for one of the world’s premier commercial cities.

Buffeted by political upheaval, an authoritarian crackdown by mainland China and the pandemic, global companies and professionals are heading to rival business cities such as Singapore, and to Shanghai, the Chinese commercial hub some see as a better place to profit from the nation’s vast economy.

Ever since the U.K. returned Hong Kong to China in 1997, the city’s leaders have billed the semiautonomous territory as “Asia’s World City”—an open society with a British-style legal system where foreign professionals could feel at home. Today, Hong Kong is becoming less open and more fused to the mainland economy.

Some companies, including banks and other financial institutions, still view Hong Kong as crucial to their China-focused business models and are digging in for the future. Others are eyeing the exit, concluding the city no longer holds the prospects it once did.+“Being in Hong Kong always used to be a no-brainer,” said Frederik Gollob, chairman of the European Chamber of Commerce in the city. “Now, for the first time, businesses are having discussions around, do we need to be in Hong Kong?”

In a survey of members of the American Chamber of Commerce in Hong Kong released last month, 42% of the 325 respondents said they were considering or planning to leave the city, citing uneasiness over China’s new security law and a pessimistic outlook of Hong Kong’s future.Dozens of international companies have moved regional headquarters or offices from the city since 2019, government data show. That has contributed to the highest rate of commercial real estate vacancies in 15 years, with more than 80% of the vacant space surrendered by international companies, data compiled by Cushman & Wakefield show. All told, more people—expatriates and locals—departed the business hub in 2020 than any year since the global financial crisis.

In January, VF Corp. , owner of Timberland, the North Face and other brands, said it was shutting its 900-person Hong Kong office after 25 years in the city. Japanese videogame maker Sony Interactive Entertainment has moved regional executives to Singapore. European luxury-goods company LVMH said it was relocating some Hong Kong-based employees from its Mot Hennessy liquor unit. French cosmetics giant L’Oral also said it was relocating some staffers from its Hong Kong headquarters.

Hong Kong boosters predict that, once the pandemic lifts, the city will emerge stronger as its businesses profit from deeper integration with the mainland. Pessimists see it gradually atrophying around a few core industries useful to China, such as finance.

In January, VF Corp. , owner of Timberland, the North Face and other brands, said it was shutting its 900-person Hong Kong office after 25 years in the city. Japanese videogame maker Sony Interactive Entertainment has moved regional executives to Singapore. European luxury-goods company LVMH said it was relocating some Hong Kong-based employees from its Mot Hennessy liquor unit. French cosmetics giant L’Oral also said it was relocating some staffers from its Hong Kong headquarters.

Hong Kong boosters predict that, once the pandemic lifts, the city will emerge stronger as its businesses profit from deeper integration with the mainland. Pessimists see it gradually atrophying around a few core industries useful to China, such as finance.

Hong Kong Commerce Secretary Edward Yau said the majority of foreign firms still believe that Hong Kong is the place for doing business, encouraged by growing opportunities with major Chinese cities. “We will continue to monitor the situation and provide the best help we can offer,” he said at a recent press conference, referring to the American Chamber of Commerce survey.

Under China’s long-term plan, Hong Kong will become part of a 70 million person “greater bay area” economic zone that includes the neighboring tech city of Shenzhen and the gambling mecca of Macau. Stephen Phillips, who runs Hong Kong’s investment promotion bureau, InvestHK, said that arrangement will become the economic engine for growth and a major business opportunity in the coming years.

He said the biggest issue for Hong Kong is getting through the Covid epidemic, and that China’s new security law for Hong Kong hasn’t had a major impact on business. “Each business will make its own decision,” he said. “But the vast majority don’t see it as a risk.”
Changed view
Hong Kong once pitched itself as a bridge between East and West. Now, for some businesses, Hong Kong is no longer global enough to serve as a regional headquarters. For others focused on doing business in China, the city isn’t as tapped in to the mainland economy as Shanghai.

Hong Kong Commerce Secretary Edward Yau said recently that most foreign firms still believe that Hong Kong is the place for doing business.

PHOTO: ROMEO GACAD/AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGESDenver-based VF is moving the Hong Kong positions responsible for its China sales and marketing to Shanghai, where they will be nearer the stores and giant online retailers crucial to its business. Employees responsible for managing its regional network of manufacturers and suppliers will relocate to Singapore, a Chinese- and English-speaking country of 5.7 million people with a strong business infrastructure. Although Singapore’s laws also limit free speech, it has an established free-market approach to business. ....
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Old 9th Jun 2021, 13:50
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Join Date: Dec 2016
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Thank you for that transcription.
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Old 9th Jun 2021, 20:08
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Join Date: Jun 2020
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Time is not only running out for CXi management, but also for Hongkers as a whole:

The CCP has managed to make enemies of the US, Oz (NZ not so much) and now Europeans too. At least despot Kim Jung still loves them. Way to go

EU denounces overhaul of HK political system
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/compone...5-20210610.htm

Last edited by Curry Lamb; 10th Jun 2021 at 03:47.
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Old 10th Jun 2021, 23:08
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Fat lady singing very loudly

Yikes, you gotta wonder what Merlin and his Princes are planing? Cut managers bonuses perhaps ?? Had they not gambled and lost 5-6 BILLION $$ in the last decade they would be in a much better position to whether the storm. But they did !!
April 2021 comes in at a 99.3% drop compared to 2 years previous and DAILY passengers in April averaged a whopping "747" 😱

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