Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

Per Hour Charges

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Per Hour Charges

Old 3rd Jan 2021, 15:15
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 52
Posts: 144
To call management amoral is like calling a lion amoral because he eats a gazelle. Management act in the interest of shareholders, period.

What a waste of energy.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 3rd Jan 2021 at 15:47.
Sam Ting Wong is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2021, 15:51
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 643
Management

You're funny in a dense and naive sort of way😲
Flex88 is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2021, 18:39
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: HKG
Posts: 29
I think you mean management are supposed to act in the interest of shareholders.
Inept managers don’t always do so by default!
Sometimes ethics also enters into the equation.
The lower you get down the food chain the more the connection to shareholders interests becomes diluted. Self interest becomes a far more realistic driver.
Walkingthedog is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2021, 20:04
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 52
Posts: 144
Every player in this game wants to maximise their profit. It's all about money, nothing else. You, me, Piet, the board, the shareholders, everybody wants as much as possible for himself. It's business, there are no morals, no ethics, just a legislation that sets the rules and a market that hands you your cards.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 3rd Jan 2021 at 20:37.
Sam Ting Wong is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2021, 00:54
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: HKG
Posts: 29
Sure but you are leaving out negligence that often goes unpunished out unethical behavior. Originally the discussion was about whether management amoral. I think it should be whether they ever are immoral.

Last edited by Walkingthedog; 4th Jan 2021 at 04:07.
Walkingthedog is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2021, 02:04
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Near the MTR
Posts: 48
controlledrest

Happy to help out with a few random vectors and a couple of holds at ABBEY/BETTY/CANTO seeing as CAD just ditched a bunch of experienced expats.
SuzieWong is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2021, 02:35
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: York International
Posts: 634
Iím sorry to hear that Suzie but I guess with so few flights it was inevitable.
While Iím still here I will continue to fly as efficiently and professionally as possible. Iíll let others play games, it only makes you more bitter.
Fly747 is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2021, 03:10
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 24
Sam Ting Wong

And there you have it. Your admission in writing.
Except as someone above said: you are dense.
And wrong.
I, for one, never needed to “maximise my profit”.
It wasn’t “all about money, (and) nothing else” for me.
I cared about not being lied to, cheated and stolen from.
I would have loved to continue working for cx if there was even a modicum of inspiration or example from management. Not even one manager demonstrated leadership in this outfit.
Not a single one I would have followed into “war” if this were a different industry.
And before you state the obvious that this is not the military: you are absolutely right as not a single one of our “managers” (including your beloved Gus) would have lasted very long.
The equivalent of “war” in this industry exists and I would have loved to work for and have worked for companies I would have gladly given up my “profit” for many years to help their survival.
I know restaurant owners with more leadership skills than current and past cx management.

That and being surrounded by gits like yourself who could only talk about and were interested in themselves and money, make me happy I am no longer part of the cx operation.

Thank you for your honesty.
Piet Lood is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2021, 04:11
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Cesspit
Posts: 323
The chest beating is pathetic.

How much have we lost? For some crew itís up to 60%.
How much will you recoup by adding another block hour each month? Approximately 1%.
Well thatíll wipe the smirk off managementís face when they discover theyíve only stolen 59% from you and your family. Iíve no doubt crew will find a way to sweep up a crumb or two, but itíll hardly have the company reassessing their strategy.

That being said, a manager who remains on his legacy contract because his role is incompatible with a productivity based system while forcing crew onto a productivity contract while knowing the rostering system is just as incompatible is hardly going to be taken seriously. Iíve no doubt they will be watching and will make an example of a couple of crew. Thatís the only way they know how to lead. From behind with a big stick.
Progress Wanchai is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2021, 04:27
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 381
May I ask which management positions have been retained on legacy contracts?
LongTimeInCX is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2021, 05:09
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Gerloz
Posts: 404
Well it wouldn't be too hard to guess, would it Long long time ago ?
And trainers with preferential housing rates, guaranteed hours, leave etc. ( compared to the troops).
Oh, and unpublished salary levels. A matter between the individual and the co.
Nice eh ?

Last edited by Globocnik; 4th Jan 2021 at 05:38.
Globocnik is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2021, 13:07
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: X
Posts: 16
Goodluck to Cathay Pathetic thinking they can save a few bucks with this one. I'm glad myself and few others with some experience behind us, said no to the HR marketing team when they showed us this same per hour payment idea already two years ago at a Pilot Expo in Berlin. The bright eyed, bushy tailed, wannabee cadets/second officers on the other hand wanted all of it. Just give them free lanyards, Cathay pens and they were sold on this new idea.

Here in Europe we can clearly see who is paid monthly and who is paid per hour. The per hour boys frequently turn down direct to shortcuts, prefer the further runway option, offer to do an extra hold, fly slower and actually taxi at around 10 knots. I wonder how their pax feel when we frequently overtake them on the parallel taxiways whilst taxiing at a normal/acceptable pace. When I say they fly slower, I have seen on occasion other carriers flying up to 50 knots slower than us on the same route, same aircraft type just because their crew are paid per hour.

It doesn't seem like much, but really adds up to the monthly bank balance apparently and of course it's done because the crew are also trying to rack up more hours & bugger off asap. The carriers that operate with this method of treating their crew are short term career options (unlike Cathay, or so Cathay used to be) and everyone here in Europe knows it. That's how the low cost carriers get away with it. A fair amount make new pilots pay for their ratings because they expect them to and in many ways want to them leave when an opportunity presents itself. This so they can keep churning in cheaper crew and coming up with worse conditions at every opportunity. I'm not so sure if Cathay will be able to pull this one off when things get back to normal, and for the sake of you guys/girls I really hope they aren't able to.
Runway Change is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2021, 21:40
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: sierra village
Posts: 333
Originally Posted by Runway Change View Post
A fair amount make new pilots pay for their ratings because they expect them to and in many ways want to them leave when an opportunity presents itself. This so they can keep churning in cheaper crew and coming up with worse conditions at every opportunity. I'm not so sure if Cathay will be able to pull this one off when things get back to normal, and for the sake of you guys/girls I really hope they aren't able to.

Interesting observation. The implication is that these companies now believe that experience levels have far less a value to the safety of an operation than in the past. If true, then this new business model of dumbing down the profession would pretty much spell the end to decent T&Cs across the industry. Not just LCCs.

Are we looking at a bleak new world where a couple of kids who have rote learned the Ops Manuals are given the keys to an an aluminium tube packed with a couple of hundred people?

lucille is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2021, 01:29
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: nfa
Posts: 128
Originally Posted by lucille View Post
Are we looking at a bleak new world where a couple of kids who have rote learned the Ops Manuals are given the keys to an an aluminium tube packed with a couple of hundred people?
In a word, yes.
bm330 is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2021, 02:25
  #35 (permalink)  
Rie
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Wan Chai
Posts: 79
We aren't looking at it we are living it. This has been the case since the mass of expat cadets started with only a hundred hours flight instruction time. Pick the people who can learn the FCTM off by heart and you'll be "safe"
Rie is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2021, 08:21
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 19
lucille

Been the case in Europe for a long time now. The whole 'Children of the Magenta Line' thing. Thing is, it is probably true (that experience does not improve safety significantly enough for an airline to value it) ATSB in Australia studied it
Pilot experience and performance in an airline environment
Freehills is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2021, 13:33
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 50
Posts: 213
controlledrest

I think this whole rant by the CP was pretty much code for: We know what you guys are planning on this new COS, and we will be watching, so look out!

Given that this pandemic won't be over by mid this year, I would be willing to bet that they will look forward to making an example of a few that milk the per hour charges just to make the others submit and toe the line. As far as the management are concerned it will be a win win.

Besides, there ain't any point in milking those charges until you get beyond the minimum, which I gather for everyone on the pax fleet its the minimum for the foreseeable future.
RAT Management is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2021, 06:10
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,813
Originally Posted by controlledrest View Post
In the 22 Dec 'The Airbus Flyer', Glen D states 'We will need to operate our aircraft as efficiently as possible as every kilogram of fuel we save, or minute we are not paying 'per hour' charges, will greatly assist our recovery...'.
I find this a little extraordinary considering all the documentation provided about the threat of a "Currency Deficit". Prior to KA's cessation, the message was clear from Flight Op's, please be conservative. KA Managers driving this message home survived the purge and moved over to CX. The couldn't feel any different or any less concerned now? There's got to be a lot of life change and stress on the CX Flight Deck and it would be extraordinary for a pilot in a management role not to be aware?

Anyways, hoping the CX guys can see well beyond this inconsistent management rhetoric and look after themselves. It's an unusually stressful place to work- well maybe that was just flying to China- as many of my ex-KA friends can't believe how relaxing unemployment is. Once you've navigated the bumpy road of the CX redundancy process of course.

Take it easy!
Gnadenburg is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2021, 06:22
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 2,975
It’s a brave new world out there, and there’s currently a surfeit of pilots.
Yes but the wheel turns, it always does, slowly, like the ox and the earth. One day, in the foreseeable future there will be a travel boom to levels never seen before as people travel to that special place they wanted to see before they die or another virus or disaster locks them at home. It will become known as the roaring twenties (again) just like post WW1. When that day comes pilots will once again be in very high demand, it will come and salaries will rise to suit. Those days will be pay pack for companies that treated employees poorly, they will bleed pilots to other carriers.
Icarus2001 is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2021, 17:35
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 71
You are correct Icarus, but unfortunately the current pilots suffer the loss of income and benefits. It will be several years at best before CX feels inclined to increase pay, and when they do it will be like pulling teeth! The company will reap the reward of the savings on COS18, and they have done it on the backs of their loyal staff. The truth of their intent is that there was no offer of a snap-back provision in the deal. They know good times will return...but those good times will only apply to management and their bonuses. Generally speaking, the career of "pilot" is over as far as CX is concerned.
mngmt mole is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.