Per Hour Charges
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 55
Posts: 504
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To call management amoral is like calling a lion amoral because he eats a gazelle. Management act in the interest of shareholders, period.
What a waste of energy.
What a waste of energy.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 3rd Jan 2021 at 14:47.
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: HKG
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you mean management are supposed to act in the interest of shareholders.
Inept managers don’t always do so by default!
Sometimes ethics also enters into the equation.
The lower you get down the food chain the more the connection to shareholders interests becomes diluted. Self interest becomes a far more realistic driver.
Inept managers don’t always do so by default!
Sometimes ethics also enters into the equation.
The lower you get down the food chain the more the connection to shareholders interests becomes diluted. Self interest becomes a far more realistic driver.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 55
Posts: 504
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Every player in this game wants to maximise their profit. It's all about money, nothing else. You, me, Piet, the board, the shareholders, everybody wants as much as possible for himself. It's business, there are no morals, no ethics, just a legislation that sets the rules and a market that hands you your cards.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 3rd Jan 2021 at 19:37.
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: HKG
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sure but you are leaving out negligence that often goes unpunished out unethical behavior. Originally the discussion was about whether management amoral. I think it should be whether they ever are immoral.
Last edited by Walkingthedog; 4th Jan 2021 at 03:07.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: York International
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I’m sorry to hear that Suzie but I guess with so few flights it was inevitable.
While I’m still here I will continue to fly as efficiently and professionally as possible. I’ll let others play games, it only makes you more bitter.
While I’m still here I will continue to fly as efficiently and professionally as possible. I’ll let others play games, it only makes you more bitter.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sam Ting Wong
And there you have it. Your admission in writing.
Except as someone above said: you are dense.
And wrong.
I, for one, never needed to “maximise my profit”.
It wasn’t “all about money, (and) nothing else” for me.
I cared about not being lied to, cheated and stolen from.
I would have loved to continue working for cx if there was even a modicum of inspiration or example from management. Not even one manager demonstrated leadership in this outfit.
Not a single one I would have followed into “war” if this were a different industry.
And before you state the obvious that this is not the military: you are absolutely right as not a single one of our “managers” (including your beloved Gus) would have lasted very long.
The equivalent of “war” in this industry exists and I would have loved to work for and have worked for companies I would have gladly given up my “profit” for many years to help their survival.
I know restaurant owners with more leadership skills than current and past cx management.
That and being surrounded by gits like yourself who could only talk about and were interested in themselves and money, make me happy I am no longer part of the cx operation.
Thank you for your honesty.
And there you have it. Your admission in writing.
Except as someone above said: you are dense.
And wrong.
I, for one, never needed to “maximise my profit”.
It wasn’t “all about money, (and) nothing else” for me.
I cared about not being lied to, cheated and stolen from.
I would have loved to continue working for cx if there was even a modicum of inspiration or example from management. Not even one manager demonstrated leadership in this outfit.
Not a single one I would have followed into “war” if this were a different industry.
And before you state the obvious that this is not the military: you are absolutely right as not a single one of our “managers” (including your beloved Gus) would have lasted very long.
The equivalent of “war” in this industry exists and I would have loved to work for and have worked for companies I would have gladly given up my “profit” for many years to help their survival.
I know restaurant owners with more leadership skills than current and past cx management.
That and being surrounded by gits like yourself who could only talk about and were interested in themselves and money, make me happy I am no longer part of the cx operation.
Thank you for your honesty.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Cesspit
Posts: 400
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The chest beating is pathetic.
How much have we lost? For some crew it’s up to 60%.
How much will you recoup by adding another block hour each month? Approximately 1%.
Well that’ll wipe the smirk off management’s face when they discover they’ve only stolen 59% from you and your family. I’ve no doubt crew will find a way to sweep up a crumb or two, but it’ll hardly have the company reassessing their strategy.
That being said, a manager who remains on his legacy contract because his role is incompatible with a productivity based system while forcing crew onto a productivity contract while knowing the rostering system is just as incompatible is hardly going to be taken seriously. I’ve no doubt they will be watching and will make an example of a couple of crew. That’s the only way they know how to lead. From behind with a big stick.
How much have we lost? For some crew it’s up to 60%.
How much will you recoup by adding another block hour each month? Approximately 1%.
Well that’ll wipe the smirk off management’s face when they discover they’ve only stolen 59% from you and your family. I’ve no doubt crew will find a way to sweep up a crumb or two, but it’ll hardly have the company reassessing their strategy.
That being said, a manager who remains on his legacy contract because his role is incompatible with a productivity based system while forcing crew onto a productivity contract while knowing the rostering system is just as incompatible is hardly going to be taken seriously. I’ve no doubt they will be watching and will make an example of a couple of crew. That’s the only way they know how to lead. From behind with a big stick.
Well it wouldn't be too hard to guess, would it Long long time ago ?
And trainers with preferential housing rates, guaranteed hours, leave etc. ( compared to the troops).
Oh, and unpublished salary levels. A matter between the individual and the co.
Nice eh ?
And trainers with preferential housing rates, guaranteed hours, leave etc. ( compared to the troops).
Oh, and unpublished salary levels. A matter between the individual and the co.
Nice eh ?
Last edited by MENELAUS; 4th Jan 2021 at 04:38.
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: 5th Sector
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Goodluck to Cathay Pathetic thinking they can save a few bucks with this one. I'm glad myself and few others with some experience behind us, said no to the HR marketing team when they showed us this same per hour payment idea already two years ago at a Pilot Expo in Berlin. The bright eyed, bushy tailed, wannabee cadets/second officers on the other hand wanted all of it. Just give them free lanyards, Cathay pens and they were sold on this new idea.
Here in Europe we can clearly see who is paid monthly and who is paid per hour. The per hour boys frequently turn down direct to shortcuts, prefer the further runway option, offer to do an extra hold, fly slower and actually taxi at around 10 knots. I wonder how their pax feel when we frequently overtake them on the parallel taxiways whilst taxiing at a normal/acceptable pace. When I say they fly slower, I have seen on occasion other carriers flying up to 50 knots slower than us on the same route, same aircraft type just because their crew are paid per hour.
It doesn't seem like much, but really adds up to the monthly bank balance apparently and of course it's done because the crew are also trying to rack up more hours & bugger off asap. The carriers that operate with this method of treating their crew are short term career options (unlike Cathay, or so Cathay used to be) and everyone here in Europe knows it. That's how the low cost carriers get away with it. A fair amount make new pilots pay for their ratings because they expect them to and in many ways want to them leave when an opportunity presents itself. This so they can keep churning in cheaper crew and coming up with worse conditions at every opportunity. I'm not so sure if Cathay will be able to pull this one off when things get back to normal, and for the sake of you guys/girls I really hope they aren't able to.
Here in Europe we can clearly see who is paid monthly and who is paid per hour. The per hour boys frequently turn down direct to shortcuts, prefer the further runway option, offer to do an extra hold, fly slower and actually taxi at around 10 knots. I wonder how their pax feel when we frequently overtake them on the parallel taxiways whilst taxiing at a normal/acceptable pace. When I say they fly slower, I have seen on occasion other carriers flying up to 50 knots slower than us on the same route, same aircraft type just because their crew are paid per hour.
It doesn't seem like much, but really adds up to the monthly bank balance apparently and of course it's done because the crew are also trying to rack up more hours & bugger off asap. The carriers that operate with this method of treating their crew are short term career options (unlike Cathay, or so Cathay used to be) and everyone here in Europe knows it. That's how the low cost carriers get away with it. A fair amount make new pilots pay for their ratings because they expect them to and in many ways want to them leave when an opportunity presents itself. This so they can keep churning in cheaper crew and coming up with worse conditions at every opportunity. I'm not so sure if Cathay will be able to pull this one off when things get back to normal, and for the sake of you guys/girls I really hope they aren't able to.
A fair amount make new pilots pay for their ratings because they expect them to and in many ways want to them leave when an opportunity presents itself. This so they can keep churning in cheaper crew and coming up with worse conditions at every opportunity. I'm not so sure if Cathay will be able to pull this one off when things get back to normal, and for the sake of you guys/girls I really hope they aren't able to.
Interesting observation. The implication is that these companies now believe that experience levels have far less a value to the safety of an operation than in the past. If true, then this new business model of dumbing down the profession would pretty much spell the end to decent T&Cs across the industry. Not just LCCs.
Are we looking at a bleak new world where a couple of kids who have rote learned the Ops Manuals are given the keys to an an aluminium tube packed with a couple of hundred people?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: nfa
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Wan Chai
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We aren't looking at it we are living it. This has been the case since the mass of expat cadets started with only a hundred hours flight instruction time. Pick the people who can learn the FCTM off by heart and you'll be "safe"
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lucille
Been the case in Europe for a long time now. The whole 'Children of the Magenta Line' thing. Thing is, it is probably true (that experience does not improve safety significantly enough for an airline to value it) ATSB in Australia studied it
Pilot experience and performance in an airline environment
Been the case in Europe for a long time now. The whole 'Children of the Magenta Line' thing. Thing is, it is probably true (that experience does not improve safety significantly enough for an airline to value it) ATSB in Australia studied it
Pilot experience and performance in an airline environment
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 53
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
controlledrest
I think this whole rant by the CP was pretty much code for: We know what you guys are planning on this new COS, and we will be watching, so look out!
Given that this pandemic won't be over by mid this year, I would be willing to bet that they will look forward to making an example of a few that milk the per hour charges just to make the others submit and toe the line. As far as the management are concerned it will be a win win.
Besides, there ain't any point in milking those charges until you get beyond the minimum, which I gather for everyone on the pax fleet its the minimum for the foreseeable future.
I think this whole rant by the CP was pretty much code for: We know what you guys are planning on this new COS, and we will be watching, so look out!
Given that this pandemic won't be over by mid this year, I would be willing to bet that they will look forward to making an example of a few that milk the per hour charges just to make the others submit and toe the line. As far as the management are concerned it will be a win win.
Besides, there ain't any point in milking those charges until you get beyond the minimum, which I gather for everyone on the pax fleet its the minimum for the foreseeable future.
Anyways, hoping the CX guys can see well beyond this inconsistent management rhetoric and look after themselves. It's an unusually stressful place to work- well maybe that was just flying to China- as many of my ex-KA friends can't believe how relaxing unemployment is. Once you've navigated the bumpy road of the CX redundancy process of course.
Take it easy!
It’s a brave new world out there, and there’s currently a surfeit of pilots.
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are correct Icarus, but unfortunately the current pilots suffer the loss of income and benefits. It will be several years at best before CX feels inclined to increase pay, and when they do it will be like pulling teeth! The company will reap the reward of the savings on COS18, and they have done it on the backs of their loyal staff. The truth of their intent is that there was no offer of a snap-back provision in the deal. They know good times will return...but those good times will only apply to management and their bonuses. Generally speaking, the career of "pilot" is over as far as CX is concerned.