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Displaced Local Crew

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Displaced Local Crew

Old 10th Dec 2020, 14:56
  #261 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 77

Don't let a few bad apples spoil the lot, by far most expats and locals get along swimmingly and don't have racist attitudes towards each other.
You can't deny most local pilots don't have much light aviation experience, but in the end it doesn't make that much of a difference.
Cathay has always been a bit of a cultural melting pot in the cockpit and in the back, which makes it all the more interesting...
Oasis is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2020, 14:59
  #262 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: The Forbidden City
Posts: 94

Until GREATER BAY AIRLINES enters the race early next year.
Wong already made it clear that KA slots should be made available to ALL airlines in HK, so UO doesn’t automatically pick up where KA left off.
I smell some more court cases coming the CX way, if they’ve gone and updated websites.
The flying public will have a choice, CX group monopoly is dead in the water.
Curry Lamb is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2020, 00:09
  #263 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Nimbus
Posts: 98
I am sure the perfect safety record of CX come from the vast variety of background and experience of the flight crew.

Make it all French and you become another AF.
Make it all local and you become another KAL or Asiana.
Make it all American and your SOPs mean nothing.
Make it all German (or Oz) and there goes your CRM
I've got more stereotype if people don't feel offended enough.

All cultures and educations have their strengths and their flaws.
What you want is a good mix of them so everybody benefit and learn from their colleagues' strengths.

I will truly miss that diversity.
No other airline in the world come close to CX in that regard (except maybe EK).
Unfortunately, it seems that safety doesn't matter enough anymore and the risk of having a hull loss is acceptable and accounted for. They will, as always, blame the individual and not the system that created him.
Zapp_Brannigan is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2020, 00:17
  #264 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: HKG
Posts: 43
Curry Lamb

CX really does need competition not only for the travelling public but industrially. With a near complete monopoly they can dictate to the union, tear up contracts and generally bully whoever they please. If there’s no free market there are no market forces to check corporate greed.
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Old 11th Dec 2020, 04:00
  #265 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: World
Posts: 39
Sorry Curry but you are full of it. You think routes will be taken from CX and given to Greater Bay? Why do you think CX chose now to close Dragon? Greater Bay doesn’t have an AOC yet so they can’t be given routes.
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Old 11th Dec 2020, 04:16
  #266 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: The Forbidden City
Posts: 94
There you go cup cake:


And in case you havenít noticed, CXi and UOme are not exactly at 100% capacity right now, and wonít be for the next 12-24 months either.

The jackbooted thugs up north looks after their own, and Iím sure the Wong guy is well connected.

Last edited by Curry Lamb; 11th Dec 2020 at 13:47.
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Old 11th Dec 2020, 04:55
  #267 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: HK
Posts: 5

Corporate greed will continue to go unchecked regardless of a monopoly or not. Why do you think most airline contracts continue to decrease around the world as time goes on. The writing is on the wall but most decide not to observe it
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Old 11th Dec 2020, 05:45
  #268 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 52
Posts: 189
Chard is correct, they don't have an AOC and hence are not able to apply (yet). All there is right now is an alleged intent. Also CX never had a full monopoly, there have always been some noisy neighbours around...

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 11th Dec 2020 at 08:13.
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Old 14th Dec 2020, 00:49
  #269 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Rabbit Hutch
Posts: 131

Made it to the SCMP at last. How predictable that Cathay cite the freighter and vaccines. KA pilots would need very little training to fly green instead of red. Nor is it about foreign vs local. It is PR vs non-PR.
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Old 14th Dec 2020, 02:57
  #270 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: HKG
Posts: 43
especially so as 777 guys are being trained in the 320🙄
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Old 19th Dec 2020, 06:55
  #271 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: lagos
Posts: 814
who is getting visa now ? Problem over ? What about touristic visa ?
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Old 19th Dec 2020, 11:24
  #272 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Wan Chai
Posts: 120
I don't really understand why you are so invested in every single forum. Bit bored old chap?

Put simply, problem always as this is a pandemic, no tourists until minimum 31 March, Visa renewals 3 months happening and no new visas or employees.
Rie is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2020, 08:19
  #273 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: YVR
Posts: 5
Seems like still no solution to this problem? Surely these ex KA guys have more self respect than to hang around HK and demand the jobs of CX guys here on visas.
I think most of the pilot community truly felt sorry for the way management axed those who had given years of their career for dragon. I also think most would agree it would make sense for cx to consider those made redundant when they next hire before hiring foreigners on visas in the future.
But to suggest and actively push to have work visas stripped and extensions not provided for those currently at CX so you can maybe have a shot at their job is a pretty low level to fall too. Why drag others down just because you are suffering? Cathay are still overstaffed so the only result of this will be more pilots loosing their job and the Dragon guys who caused it still won't be needed for their fantasy 320 spots.
Let's not forget who the enemy is and it isn't each other.
ascalehero is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2020, 12:00
  #274 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: HKG
Posts: 43
I think you’ll find most of the expats have left it’s too expensive to do otherwise.
It’s not just a cx “problem” it impacts all HKG carriers. As to stripping work visas that’s the immigration departments remit not the pilots. It would be naive to assume that they “missed” the fact that ka was shut down. In this town it’s rare that individual cases could ever impact policy.
As to cx being overmanned knowing their track record do you really think they keep people on out of the goodness of their heart or not simply because a few ex ka locals might complain?
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 13:09
  #275 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Perpetually Commuting
Posts: 250
Originally Posted by ascalehero View Post
But to suggest and actively push to have work visas stripped and extensions not provided for those currently at CX so you can maybe have a shot at their job is a pretty low level to fall too. Why drag others down just because you are suffering?
Because locals are locals and foreigners are foreigners.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 14:19
  #276 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: HKG
Posts: 43

just a question then. It’s acceptable to make ka staff redundant for economic reasons but not cx?
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 14:44
  #277 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 77
If it was ka that bought cx, it would be a reverse situation, no doubt.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 14:45
  #278 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 83
Unfortunately, once the company headed down the "local" road (way back in 1988...) it was inevitable that this situation would eventually push its way to the forefront. There is virtually no country that will displace its local talent for the sake of expats. I always believed that one day CX would cease to be an expat company, and in some ways I am surprised it has taken this long. Certainly the political pressure from hundreds of out of work local pilots was always going to pressure change, and once they closed KA it was inevitable the issue would be pressed ahead.

Arguably there is no turning back for the aviation industry in HK. To be fair, the issue is also manifesting itself in the banking industry, with the banks reducing their expat count as more and more local bankers assume the positions of higher responsibility. They become the leaders, and their natural affinity is to hire from a similar background.

It became an accepted "truism" that CX would always be an "expat" airline...until it wasn't. I sympathise for the many expats who internally rationalised that CX was their " career" airline. Unfortunately, the changes in the past year in both the airline and HK have quickly swept that conceit aside. We were always just the hired help, and a new reality has replaced the old comfortable logic, one that no longer applies. I remember an ex CEO tell me back in 1992 that we (the A scale) would "die on the vine". Well, the vine is now withered and about to be discarded...

There will be some expats employed by CX for many years yet, but it will be on strictly local terms and only if they are required for specific job skills. I don't believe "pilot" will remain in that category for too much longer...

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Old 26th Dec 2020, 15:01
  #279 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: HKG
Posts: 43
You are right. When I joined it was with the understanding that I was joining a local airline and that inevitably once a local workforce was established I’d be surplus to requirements. With that went expat “perks”.
I was told I’d get 10 years 15 at best. I was fortunate that the market was strong and the post handover concept of PR kept me employed (well until recently).
Another aspect is that most of the locals are constrained by their passport and license to working in HKG (even if they got a foreign license they’d be unlikely to get a work via).
One has to look at this from all angles. It’s a mess and the company really should have seen it coming.
Honestly if I were a local I’d be fed up. If the boot we’re on the other foot In sure the cx pilots would feel the same.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 15:11
  #280 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 83
Unfortunately, like most issues to do with CX, it has turned into the biggest mess possible (that is the one constant in my career....major management foul-ups). Beginning back in 1988 with the localisation program, to ASL, the basing debacle, housing, staff travel, multiple different COS...etc etc...this company has written the industry book on how not to manage an airline. Now, with the cruel scythe of covid through our midst, the consequences of nearly all of those things together have combined to effectively destroy the careers of all their present staff. As you say, no one is happy and if the shoe was on the other foot we'd be equally upset.

The sooner the individual recognises the reality of what CX has now become, the sooner they can make a more informed decision as to their long term future. With the luxury of being at the end of the career, it is obvious that there is no real career left to be had in CX. It has become, and will remain an asian LLC with a more impressive name and reputation (that won't last over the long term however).

I truly feel sorry for all involved, as it really is not the fault of anyone other than a cynical and greedy Swire management cabal. Merlin and family have forgotten who really provided them with this fading jewel in the region, and it is on their heads that I place most of the blame. They and their sycophantic Swire "princes" have conspired to steal all value to themselves, and have cast asunder all the hard working employees that truly created this company.

The only decision to be made now is for each individual to assess where their long term interests best lie. I suggest it is no longer in HK or CX. MM
mngmt mole is online now  

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