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Cathay Pacific ‘to axe 6,000 staff and Dragon brand’ in bid to stay afloat

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Cathay Pacific ‘to axe 6,000 staff and Dragon brand’ in bid to stay afloat

Old 1st Nov 2020, 10:41
  #261 (permalink)  
 
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veritas777

I bet you wear aviators....
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 11:09
  #262 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AndyBrown350 View Post
Quite interesting that many, if not all of the incidents this year, was on the hands of an experienced expat captain..
Better not tell any of the "experienced expat captains" here, they'll tell you they never make mistakes, meanwhile no cadet can muster the almighty challenge of landing in Anchorage...
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 11:45
  #263 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by veritas777 View Post
Skilled cadet pilot: knows the limitations of the aircraft, weather, learns from both his experience and the experience of others and makes good decisions and judgements

Cowboy PPRuNe expat: oh boy, time to show the world how much better I really am than those useless cadets, they're the only ones who ever make mistakes, not me. Forget 100 years of history, my whole 2 anecdotes prove it for sure.

Hilarious.

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Old 1st Nov 2020, 11:50
  #264 (permalink)  
 
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I have flown with bad pilots, CN or FO, expat and cadets.
I have flown with great pilots, expats and cadets.

What's certain is that with such a bad contract, CX will mostly be able to attract bad pilots from now on, expats or cadets.

They're not looking for the best anymore, just the cheapest.
Otherwise, they would have kept the KA guys, most of whom were great, experienced pilots.

Last edited by Zapp_Brannigan; 1st Nov 2020 at 12:04.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 12:07
  #265 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=Zapp_Brannigan;10916550]I have flown with bad pilots, CN or FO, expat and cadets.
I have flown with great pilots, expats and cadets.

What's certain is that with such a bad contract, CX will mostly be able to attract bad pilots from now on, expats or cadets.

They're not looking for the best anymore, just the cheapest.
Otherwise, they would have kept the KA guys, most of whom were great, experienced pilots.[

a lot of whom will end up here and the contracts aren’t bad even in the midst of a pandemic

Pilot Jobs - China Aviation
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 14:18
  #266 (permalink)  
swh

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Originally Posted by Zapp_Brannigan View Post
Otherwise, they would have kept the KA guys, most of whom were great, experienced pilots.
I think many will be back when things pickup. I also expect Ops-A to change in line with market conditions to require FOs to have a number of PF sectors before being eligible for a command so DEC can be justified.

Other airlines in Asia that is around 500-750 PF sectors. Many CX FOs with one PF sector every 6-10 weeks will learn what the 12-14 years as a CX SO/FO time is actually worth.

it takes a lot of confidence in your ability to pack up your family and move half way around the world.

Something some of the ex KA crew are going to experience for the first time. Good luck to them.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 16:30
  #267 (permalink)  
 
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"What's certain is that with such a bad contract, CX will mostly be able to attract bad pilots from now on, expats or cadets."

given the number of good pilot that are out of work I think your analysis is flawed - these people now have no jobs & no income - sure the terms aren't as good as CX used to have but it's a job and al ot of decent pilots will want to get back flying
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 17:15
  #268 (permalink)  
 
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I think you are all missing the point! Cathay will not be hiring pilots for a very very long time! Be it Cadets, redundant cx pilots or recently unemployed Dragon Air pilots! If anything we will be putting more of our own on the street shortly, we are way over staffed (even after the events of the last few weeks) and it's heartbreaking. So can we stop arguing about stupid crap and wake up to the disgusting reality of what is happening.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 17:54
  #269 (permalink)  
 
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I have to agree. Now that the vast majority are on COS 18 (...unbelievable), the company has complete discretion to cut and slash in any method they feel fit. I would suggest that an entire 777 fleet on the ground isn't going to go unnoticed, nor the fact that based pilots (most 777) are not flying at all. I would love to be proved wrong on this, but I can sadly predict that only the first shoe has dropped. CX management have thrown caution to the winds (never mind respect for their staff) and will take full advantage of the temporary crisis to enact permanent change. Their true nature is now on full display. It is a horror to behold when you strip away any lingering affection for this once great employer.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 18:16
  #270 (permalink)  
 
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I think your correct! I suspect anyone who doesn't sign across to COS18 will be replaced by someone who is forced off a base in a shrinking of the bases. Then any known troublemaker will be made redundant and then the remaining based pilots will be returned to Hong Kong all on COs18, and there you have it the new slim, mean and in the future incredibly profitable Cathay Pacific. All pilots on a new cheap, Hong Kong based contract! I fear even if a base is cheaper it doesn't matter it's about the flexibility that Cos18 offers CX management, flexibility that can only come by being in Hong Kong as the employment laws of many of the base localities are too strict in comparison. COs18 along with the labor laws of Hong Kong is the envy of any airline management anywhere, the power to basically do whatever you want without significant penalty.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 20:43
  #271 (permalink)  
swh

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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
given the number of good pilot that are out of work I think your analysis is flawed - these people now have no jobs & no income - sure the terms aren't as good as CX used to have but it's a job and al ot of decent pilots will want to get back flying
Cannot see immigration being able to justify any new work permits for pilots when there are literally hundreds unemployed with PR.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 21:09
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LLLQNH

Wow.....that seems like one helluva conspiracy.

Wonder what the home nation of the based pilot would think of it.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 21:16
  #273 (permalink)  
 
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LLLQNH

wow where did you get this knowledge?
from that place where the sun don’t shine?
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 21:27
  #274 (permalink)  
 
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Close! We are all just postulating after all. Who knows what will happen next, odds are based on what we have seen so far it won't be pleasant, and probably not what one would expect.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 22:12
  #275 (permalink)  
 
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I think everyone expected what happened, they just didn't want to believe it.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 22:28
  #276 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by swh View Post
Cannot see immigration being able to justify any new work permits for pilots when there are literally hundreds unemployed with PR.
Nor the renewal of permits for those who haven’t done the seven years.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 23:40
  #277 (permalink)  
 
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Why not apply to the new greater bay airlines. Will be up and running by next summer.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 23:41
  #278 (permalink)  
 
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Yes. What could go wrong with that ? Sign me up.
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 01:44
  #279 (permalink)  
 
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From Nikkei Asia:Chinese tycoon bets on Hong Kong travel rebound with new airline Greater Bay Airlines has leased three jets and is hiring up to 500 staff

HONG KONG -- Even as one Hong Kong airline disappears under the pressure of the coronavirus pandemic after 35 years of operations, another is rising to take its place.

Greater Bay Airlines, which takes its name from Chinese President Xi Jinping's pet project to integrate Hong Kong and Macao with Shenzhen, Guangzhou and other cities in Guangdong Province, has started hiring staff and preparing paperwork and aircraft to be able to take to the skies by mid-2021.

Embodying the Greater Bay Area notion, the airline is the brainchild of Chinese property tycoon Huang Chubiao, who owns Shenzhen-based carrier Donghai Airlines.

"We know it comes at a time when aviation is facing this unprecedented crisis," Stanley Hui Hong-chung, an industry veteran who is advising Huang, told Nikkei Asia in a recent interview. "(But) he is damn serious about this project."

Hui previously served as chief executive of Dragonair, the airline later renamed Cathay Dragon, which Cathay Pacific Airways shut down abruptly on Oct. 21. He also has been chief executive of the Airport Authority of Hong Kong and is currently an independent board director at Air China, which in turn is a major shareholder of both Cathay Pacific and Shenzhen Airlines.

Hui bases his optimism about the recovery of the local aviation market on his experience leading Dragonair through the SARS epidemic in 2003.

"Demand dried up and it was very frightening," he said. "(But) the reality is, I think eventually these things will be overcome," he added, expressing faith in the emergence of effective vaccines and treatment for COVID-19 by next year.

Donghai Airlines, which launched cargo flights in 2006, moved into passenger operations in 2014 and now serves 54 cities, including international routes to Naypyidaw and Darwin, Australia, according to its website.

Donghai Airlines operates 23 Boeing 737-800 aircraft, according to its website, which lists a growth target of 80 planes by 2025. © AP[/color]The entrance of Huang, also known as Bill Wong, into Hong Kong aviation is a natural extension of the earlier venture, with "a push from the policy direction of the country on Greater Bay," Hui said.

From Hui's perspective as a 45-year industry veteran, "establishing a new airline is very different" from the challenges facing industry incumbents like Cathay amid the pandemic.

"It's a very different situation compared with airlines that are so big," he said. "This [is an] unprecedented crisis, and they have to downsize... It's extremely painful for existing airlines."

In preparation for launch, Greater Bay Air has signed a lease for three secondhand Boeing 737-800 narrow-body jets, the same model that Donghai operates, and it plans to secure two more by the end of next year. It applied for a Hong Kong air operator's certificate in May.

The company aims to hire 400 to 500 staff under the recruitment drive launched in mid-October, shortly before Cathay announced it would cut 5,300 positions in Hong Kong.

Hui said some former Cathay staff have put in applications. "It would be natural that people with the right skills would be considered," he said.

The new airline intends to serve routes to China, East Asia and Southeast Asia, Hui said without specifying targets though acknowledging they are likely to overlap with some of the 46 routes that were served by Cathay Dragon.

Although Cathay Pacific Chairman Patrick Healy has said he hopes that Cathay and sister carrier Hong Kong Express can take over most of those route rights, the Hong Kong government has said that any interested carrier can apply to get them.

Huang Chubiao, left, and Stanley Hui. (Courtesy Greater Bay Airlines)[/color]"It is too early to speculate" on whether Greater Bay will vie for the rights, Hui said, indicating the company will first need a full set of operating licenses.

Hui and Huang have become close while serving together as members of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, Beijing's top advisory body.

Asked whether their personal networks will help get Greater Bay airborne, Hui said: "We all have to go through exactly the same process regardless of who you are and what you are. I would not play up anything on so-called political connections."


If someone of such credentials is betting on tourism recovery so fast that he is starting a new airline, I'm optimistic travel will pick up. People are dying to want to go travel, you just need borders to reopen. Also a new airline can prevent a swire monopoly here in the city, maybe competitive salary or benefits down the road.
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 02:28
  #280 (permalink)  
 
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Of course people will fly again at some point. But our conditions of service are dimished forever. The pay at Greater Bay Airline ( or ANY new airline) will be even worse.


Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 2nd Nov 2020 at 03:05.
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