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Our last month of "normality"

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Our last month of "normality"

Old 2nd Sep 2020, 10:43
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: australia
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
...Oh, I sse...it's all "Trumps" fault.... Got it. How silly of me not have realised that. TDS... :/

Just as those working for the CIA leaned with Bush Jnr, if you don't give him what he wants you will be gone. The FDA and CDC WILL follow the pipers tune.

Rub the sleep out of your eyes.
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Old 2nd Sep 2020, 12:55
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by exfocx View Post
Just as those working for the CIA leaned with Bush Jnr, if you don't give him what he wants you will be gone. The FDA and CDC WILL follow the pipers tune.

Rub the sleep out of your eyes.
Of course, the Deep State has been working for the American President this whole time, not against him as he claims. How could I have been so obtuse? Thanks for clearing that up for me, exfocx, with your [email protected] like keenness and insider info from across the globe. Good to know all those tens of thousands of career bureaucrats in DC are singing the pipers tune.

PS - Try a different news channel just once... You might find that Fake News is, well, fake. Unless of course, you prefer being lied to.
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Old 2nd Sep 2020, 13:02
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 1
Cxorcist. I've found that once someone has reached the level of delusion that Exfocx has, there is really no going back. In spite of 4 years of solid evidence that the Deep State is a real entity, that has been working overtime to destroy the elected leader of the nation, many people still buy into the rubbish spewed forth daily by the MSM. Those same people will wake up on Nov 5 and wonder just how that scoundrel stole another election. None is as blind as one who will not see...
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 04:38
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Gold Coast
Posts: 66
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
Cxorcist. I've found that once someone has reached the level of delusion that Exfocx has, there is really no going back. In spite of 4 years of solid evidence that the Deep State is a real entity, that has been working overtime to destroy the elected leader of the nation, many people still buy into the rubbish spewed forth daily by the MSM. Those same people will wake up on Nov 5 and wonder just how that scoundrel stole another election. None is as blind as one who will not see...
Fox News is the most watched news channel. Therefore Fox News is MSM.

As for the deep state conspiracy theory... The president alternates between Republican and Democrat. How is it that the ENTIRE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, consisting of MILLIONS OF CIVIL SERVICE EMPLOYEES, are all Democrats?
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 05:05
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Earth Orbit
Posts: 26
It is now confirmed the bases are safe beyond the end of 2020 with the extension of the various salary reduction schemes.

This can mean that the axe is about to fall on HKG, which makes sense, as if they close bases at a later date, the return to HKG will be cheaper.
Angel 8 is offline  
Old 3rd Sep 2020, 08:50
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: UK
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Let me be very clear... I will not vote for a pay cut of any type unless CX is willing to right size the pilot force. In other words, I will not take a cut to create jobs for pilots we don’t need.
When BA announced 1255 pilot redundancies, all the pilots came together with a focus to keep all pilots in a job through these tough times. We were all willing to pull together and make sacrifices for each other, so that no-one was thrown to the wolves in the biggest downturn the industry has ever seen. Do you know what, it felt pretty good to be on that team.

(The company unfortunately rejected our cost neutral proposals to save all jobs. But they agreed to some mitigations, resulting in 250 redundancies, a saving of 1005 from the initial figure)
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 10:03
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: HK
Posts: 56
White Van Driver, we all know Cxorcist would happily let all 1255 pilots be fired if that meant he didn't have to sacrifice a single dollar, you could only Imagine what it would be like to work with him.
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 10:36
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by Firefly47 View Post
White Van Driver, we all know Cxorcist would happily let all 1255 pilots be fired if that meant he didn't have to sacrifice a single dollar, you could only Imagine what it would be like to work with him.
Could you give old mate some slack - jeez! Mom left a while ago, he has to pay her until who knows when, and he has not seen that Bangkok ladyboy for a few months. Where's the respect??
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 11:01
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 150
Originally Posted by Memorylapse View Post
Could you give old mate some slack - jeez! Mom left a while ago, he has to pay her until who knows when, and he has not seen that Bangkok ladyboy for a few months. Where's the respect??

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏🤣
good on the BA crew, good to see a bit of humanity still exists, something Cxorcist does not understand.
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 11:16
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 48
In other news: KLM crew are taking their employer to court for violating their contract.

You only ever hear part of the story.
Remember a few years ago Lufthansa pilots took their employer to court for violating their contract as well.
Half the world was disgusted by these “spoilt brats”, who “shouldn’t complain because they were (supposedly) the best paid pilots in the world”.
The other half saw the reason for what it was: a moneygrab and stealing away of their contractually agreed pensionfund, while at the same time managers were still handsomely rewarded with multi-million-dollar-bonusses.

Yes, times are different now, but ask yourself: if my employer is willing and allowed to break one clause (e.g. LIFO) in ones contract, what other clauses are allowed to be broken?
In other words: why have a contract at all?
Just go in and shake hands with your new owner and trust the smiling face on the other side to do what’s right.
You signed a contract for a reason.
If you’re willing for someone’s contract to be violated, don’t complain when it’s YOUR time to get rodgered.
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 12:32
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by Memorylapse View Post
Could you give old mate some slack - jeez! Mom left a while ago, he has to pay her until who knows when, and he has not seen that Bangkok ladyboy for a few months. Where's the respect??
+1
(I need 10 characters to post)
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 16:43
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Firefly47 View Post
White Van Driver, we all know Cxorcist would happily let all 1255 pilots be fired if that meant he didn't have to sacrifice a single dollar, you could only Imagine what it would be like to work with him.
You want jobs or careers? Because it is becoming evident that you cannot have both. Just say no to corporate welfare!

If 1255 pilots is the excess number for a right sized pilot group, why keep a single one extra? Is this a jobs program or an airline? If it means paying guys atop the seniority list to leave, offering leave without pay, or furloughing from the bottom (with preference to the first two); so be it. CX (BA) has an obligation to its shareholders and its employees to right size the airline for future profitability and growth based on their best forecast (guess) of the market.

White Van Driver, I am happy for you to “feel good” about what you did as part of the “team“, but that does not mean your pilot group did the right thing. How will the careers (contract) at BA be affected long term? How long will it take to get back what has been lost? At CX, concessions are permanent. History tells us that. Things only get worse for CX pilots, never better. So perhaps a bit of apples and oranges imo.

As for momma and the ladyboys, she is still living at home as my best friend, and I’ve never caught “the yellow fever” in all my years in Asia.
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 16:43
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Crew bunk
Posts: 132
The level of delusional stupidity here is amazing. Cathay has way too many pilots. It needs to get rid of them - period! Say (for easy math for the knuckle draggers), that CX has 3400 pilots but only needs 1700. Do you really think that if everybody takes 50% paycuts that they'll just keep all the pilots? They will still have 1700 pilots sitting at home getting paid for nothing, and the ones actually working will now be working just as hard for half pay. How does that make any sense at all? What's the next step in cost cutting? They'll ask, "Why in the hell are we paying 1700 pilots when we don't need them?" They're not going to keep 1700 pilots around that contribute nothing to company and just bleed their cash.

You can live in a dream bubble and wish for a solution that just pays you for nothing, but that is exactly that - a dream bubble. Giving up pay doesn't solve the real problem. We have too many pilots and we need to get rid of them. You're not going to have a say in the matter. If they get rid of you, me or anyone else, then it is what it is. Deal with it! Life sucks sometimes. Cutting anyone's pay or contracts isn't going to keep you around if you're on the high risk group for being not needed. It's selfish to think that someone who is not, should bend over and accept an inferior contract in a futile attempt to save you.
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 18:20
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: UK
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
You want jobs or careers? Because it is becoming evident that you cannot have both. Just say no to corporate welfare!

If 1255 pilots is the excess number for a right sized pilot group, why keep a single one extra? Is this a jobs program or an airline? If it means paying guys atop the seniority list to leave, offering leave without pay, or furloughing from the bottom (with preference to the first two); so be it. CX (BA) has an obligation to its shareholders and its employees to right size the airline for future profitability and growth based on their best forecast (guess) of the market.

White Van Driver, I am happy for you to “feel good” about what you did as part of the “team“, but that does not mean your pilot group did the right thing. How will the careers (contract) at BA be affected long term? How long will it take to get back what has been lost? At CX, concessions are permanent. History tells us that. Things only get worse for CX pilots, never better. So perhaps a bit of apples and oranges imo.

As for momma and the ladyboys, she is still living at home as my best friend, and I’ve never caught “the yellow fever” in all my years in Asia.
Cxorcist, first off I don't condone the ad hominem attacks on you.

The thrust of our attempts at job saving were part time contacts for all, which gives a very defined route route back to full pay, and keeps everyone working and current. We basically needed 30% less pilots and there was widespread support for a part time contract across the board to achieve that full time equivalent headcount saving.

I guess the difference is that in CX you have the redundancy mechanism in your contracts, so senior bods like yourself can feel safe and well removed from those at the bottom and at risk. In our case the company were after both LHS and RHS of the unproductive fleets/bases. Covering the most senior 747/a380 captains right down to the new joiners on the LGW A320 fleet. This meant that no one felt truly safe hence the drive to save all jobs.

For most, being part of a team overcoming adversity and ensuring job security for the group was well worth taking a part time contract. The bonds made in times like this have the power to keep the group unified through future struggles. In our industry that unity is priceless.
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 21:38
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1
Pogie’s Post is prescient imo.

White Van Driver, I think we agree that BA and CX are very different airlines in almost every way. Therefore, applying the solution BALPA came up with to CX pilots is moot. I’m not sure why a BA pilot would come on here and extend their solution to CX. I would never do that on a BA forum, but I give you the benefit of the doubt that your intentions are good.
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 22:45
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 518
WVD,

Can you please explain what is happening to the pilots who got “saved”.

Are they all sitting at home doing SFA or are some getting retrained?

The problem at CX is that this company absolutely hates doing unnecessary conversions.
So if we indeed applied the BA solution at CX, we would have all 400 and most Airbus guys flying a normal roster and the 777 boys and girls doing ZERO for at least till the end of year.

Referring to the comment above CX does not have a seniority based fleet bidding system. Hence you have totally random fleet allocation based on demand when joining, resulting in junior guys on the 400 flying their backside off and senior guys on the 777 doing very little.

Last edited by AQIS Boigu; 4th Sep 2020 at 07:13.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 03:51
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Here
Posts: 462
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Let me be very clear... I will not vote for a pay cut of any type unless CX is willing to right size the pilot force. In other words, I will not take a cut to create jobs for pilots we don’t need.
Whether you took SLS or not, unless you're in the "elite operating core group", you're taking a pay cut now WHILST THEY'RE STILL TRAINING NEW S/O's FFS.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 04:14
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 150
Originally Posted by AQIS Boigu View Post

The problem at CX is that this company absolutely hates doing unnecessary conversions.
with regard to fleet transfer requests in normal times sure, In the current crisis I disagree, Cx nor any other airline in the world has ever experienced anything like this covid crisis.I have no doubt cx will do conversions as required in line with the restructure plan.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 04:46
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Gerloz
Posts: 345
Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
with regard to fleet transfer requests in normal times sure, In the current crisis I disagree, Cx nor any other airline in the world has ever experienced anything like this covid crisis.I have no doubt cx will do conversions as required in line with the restructure plan.
Keep telling yourself that. It will be a LIFO +. And if questioned they’ll claim force majeure. And which particular court will stop it ? Our local one ?
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 06:30
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: here
Posts: 141
I don't think Cxorcist is alone. I suspect the senior half will generally be happy to take temporary cuts, but start talking permanent changes to COS, and it's bye bye Me Generation. I'd be surpised if a single person is happy to take a permanent cut so that a 500hr C172 instructor can stay.
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