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Our last month of "normality"

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Our last month of "normality"

Old 1st Sep 2020, 07:20
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 48
Originally Posted by AllWobbly View Post
He may be overtaken by demographics when it comes to a vote.
Unfortunately you’re not wrong.
also unfortunately, those who will outvote him, will be outvoted themselves by the next generation ZZ (we ran out of alphabet didn’t we?) and down and down the spiral goes.

Piet Lood is online now  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 07:37
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 48
Originally Posted by herewego75 View Post
Wow all you pessimistic pilots need to calm down!
Will I halve my salary? Well I believe we are all going to have to take some sort of pay cut (hopefully temporary) or RRO (over 2 years). So yes I am willing to take a pay cut to save my job. If I can afford a RRO I will do that also. To save MY job and the jobs of OTHERS!

Will I work for free? Don't be ridiculous!
Will I pay to fly? This shows your immaturity during this situation, so I won't even answer this question.

I am a professional pilot and probably started here with more experience than most captains had when they joined, so the name calling and all the attacking of my experience won't bother me. Sticks and stones.

The question is will the top 1/3 pilots take a Temporary pay cut? Say 35%(everyone should be on the same pay cut)? Or are you not bothered about saving other people jobs and families?
Because everyone in the bottom 2/3 will take a cut etc. Believe me.

I am not here to argue over the what if's but simply state my intention in the upcoming months. Everyone needs to rethink their living and financial situations for the next 2 years. Its gonna be tough but we all can get through this and come out stronger on the other side.

Positive vibes!

Here’s the biggest difference between you (presumably towards the bottom of the seniority list) and I (admittedly an old fart at the end of his career):
You put “(hopefully temporary)” in parentheses as if it were a sidenote and I put “PERMANENT” in capital print because it is the main point of contention.
In my 30+ years in aviation I have NEVER seen a permanent improvement to the pilot community’s conditions of service even though aviation seems to be thriving(until COVID).
My manager’s bonuses however have increased to the degree that you and I could retire on ONE of those year’s bonuses alone.
How and why are they getting those bonuses you ask? Because they have convinced THEIR bosses how to cut costs (e.g. pilots’ salaries) PERMANENTLY.

Furthermore I want to repeat something that shows your naievity:
“Will I work for free? Don't be ridiculous!“
Bamboo pilots have indeed volunteered to work for free!
“Will I pay to fly? This shows your immaturity during this situation, so I won't even answer this question.”
Ryanair pilots are still paying for their typerating, uniform etc., so please don’t call ME immature. Have a look around you but please keep calling us old farts out of touch.

I tried to leave this industry in a better condition than I found it. I failed and it pains me.
I wish you more luck and unity, but I fear the worst.
I’ll be allright Jack. And so will your managers/owners.
Piet Lood is online now  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 08:06
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 373
Will I work for free?
Will I pay to fly?
You do know there are many willing to do this.

If you were a bean counter on the 4th floor what will you do?
CodyBlade is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 08:11
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 151
Ryanair pilots,Jetsart Asia,Viet are still paying for their typerating.
It suddenly dawned on HR if we want to hire a driver surely he must have a licence ready?

Who will hire a chauffeur w/o a driver's lic?.Then we have to get him a licence? Ridiculous!
wongsuzie is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 08:21
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,801
Originally Posted by CodyBlade View Post
You do know there are many willing to do this.

If you were a bean counter on the 4th floor what will you do?
Who? Work in HKG for free?

What's wrong with people? Calm down.
Gnadenburg is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 08:22
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 150
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Let me be very clear... I will not vote for a pay cut of any type unless CX is willing to right size the pilot force. In other words, I will not take a cut to create jobs for pilots we don’t need.
you may not have a choice🤣
fly1981 is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 08:41
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by fly1981 View Post
you may not have a choice🤣
Sounds about right.Hk is now a fully fledged Chinese city.
wongsuzie is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 08:58
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 410
Lucille,

sounds silly, but here is a link to a site that has a link to the original.
OK4Wire is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 09:51
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 74
Originally Posted by finestkind View Post
Well done. You have found out it is all a conspiracy with all Governments in collusion (as has happened numerous times) to gain more control of their people (particularly China, Iran and Iraq etc) and curtail CLIMATE CHANGE. And you also have unearthed it’s all aimed at pilots and making the commercial airline’s go bankrupt.
and I must add, pilots are targeted because they KNOW the earth is flat, and the powers that be do not want us to release this in the general public.
fab777 is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 10:09
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: sierra village
Posts: 275
Originally Posted by OK4Wire View Post
Lucille,

sounds silly, but here is a link to a site that has a link to the original.
Better yet, that suspect website provides the link. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/c...#Comorbidities

Goto the paragraph headed Comorbitities for that 6% number.

Many thanks!
lucille is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 13:03
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by exfocx View Post
You truly are tone deaf.

The CDC is now responding to threats from Trump, they've seen what happens (FDA) when you don't follow Trumps lead. The craven ones are the likes of you, a truly selfish individual who's only concern is your income, and that's it.

You are a pathetic person who has described yourself very aptly (narcissistic, craven, malignant and for good measure I'll add, hysterical).
...Oh, I sse...it's all "Trumps" fault.... Got it. How silly of me not have realised that. TDS... :/
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 13:06
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by lucille View Post
Do you have a link to this please, I’d like to be able to use it in a “discussion“ I’m having with the nannies.

The CDC web side was not explicit.
The section entitled "comorbidities" , first sentence. (but remember....it's all Trumps fault).

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/c...ekly/index.htm
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 13:08
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Gnadenburg View Post
Who? Work in HKG for free?

What's wrong with people? Calm down.
I once believed that people wouldn't come to HK and join CX without housing assistance....
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 13:41
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: The Forbidden City
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
I once believed that people wouldn't come to HK and join CX without housing assistance....
I've got a couple of lovely 350 sqfts in Tung Chung, ideal for a family of 4 (plus maid and fluffy the dog).

It's not quite the Four Seasons - I hear you - but on the bright side, it's affordable with the 10k, written into the new CosCov20 contract being drafted as I type. Final "adjustments" being discussed before the 1 October implementation, on a take it or leave it basis.

Apply NOW, as these are gonna go like the china plague, once that *magic vaccine becomes available, also on 1 October.

*Developed, tried and tested by the very PLA

Curry Lamb is online now  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 13:46
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1
I remember, not so long ago, when being a CX pilot meant something. It took experience, ability, and a certain swagger to get “on the team”. Now, we are just like every other Asian airline, taking wannabes from anywhere in the world as long as they are willing to work for cheap, and then train them to the “CX standard” (severely comprised)...

It’s not your fault wannabes, we (expats) didn’t defend our careers when we had the chance, starting back in 1993. Now, we sure are going to be punished for it as “pilots” fall all over themselves to take pay cuts and concessions to save their skin. It is truly sad.

If you are in the bottom approximately 1500 pilots on the CX seniority list, please know that you are entirely redundant, and should be made so. If you are on the Airbus or 747, more senior 777 pilots should be trained to fill your position. That’s not an opinion, it’s a fact.

All this talk to the contrary is industry non-standard mumbo jumbo from this fake news, social media craven, socialism laced, kinder gentler, peacefully protesting world entirely predicated on unlimited printing of fiat currency, which will ultimately fail. The laws of economics always win out in the end, no matter how determined societies, governments, and companies are to cheat them. This won’t end well...

... And yes, the WuFlu is far less deadly than all the fake news sources are pretending. Make no mistake, it will kill you if you are older and/or have co-morbidities. But for the lion’s share of people under 55-60, this virus does not deserve the acclaim it is receiving. Should we be careful to avoid spread? Yes. Should we shut down massive portions of the global economy? No. Vulnerables need to protect themselves, and we should accommodate that, but the rest of us need to get on with it already. The curve has been flattened, and hospital systems are not overwhelmed. The virus will be with us for a good while longer though. “The cure cannot be worse than the disease!” I say that on a macro- / utilitarian level.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 14:57
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 612
snowflakes

Originally Posted by exfocx View Post
You truly are tone deaf.

The CDC is now responding to threats from Trump, they've seen what happens (FDA) when you don't follow Trumps lead. The craven ones are the likes of you, a truly selfish individual who's only concern is your income, and that's it.
You are a pathetic person who has described yourself very aptly (narcissistic, craven, malignant and for good measure I'll add, hysterical).
Geesh, this one is truly triggered at hearing the "facts"... He/She has no retort whatsoever and is likely genetically linked to those now burning Portland..
The ONLY time I've seen a perhaps relevant use of CX's "latest" garbage corporate mantra; this person needs to "Move Beyond" and go straight to their Safe Place







Flex88 is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 15:12
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Aust
Posts: 136
Originally Posted by Freehills View Post
it wasn’t normal before that either. A perfect storm of restricted supply at Kai Tak, political issues (1989 exodus, Taiwan-China traffic going via HK) meant CX was in the right place at right time for several years.
You forgot to mention in your perfect storm that in those days CX had the HK government and hence the CAD in their back pocket.
deja vu is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 15:27
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 237
Originally Posted by Progress Wanchai View Post
Could you be any more self centred? I gather you’re unaware that 90% of the company’s workforce has no restrictions on who can be made redundant.
Management are working on the future size of the company and when those plans are complete they’ll be enacted and I’m sure they’ll give consideration to contractural clauses only in so far as making an allowance for any breach.

What do people think they’ll be “voting“ on? For those who are Hong Kong based your contract is a unique agreement between yourself and the company. IF the company offers some sort of variation to your current conditions, it’s up to you as an individual to sign it or not sign it as you see fit and then as an individual live with the consequences, much the same way COS08 was offered in 2009. Remember that? Ask yourself how many times you’ve told a COS99 Officer “you know what you signed”, then remind them why they should now be volunteering to amend what they signed.
Nope....just old and from an era when people actually paid their debts and bills and honored their contracts. Living in a world full of risk that you gotta deal with; not try to hide and isolate away from (which is obviously impossible). Without this touchy-feely BS that a person got himself/herself into a situation he/she doesn't like and expects someone ELSE to bail them out of it. The terms to new joiners were and always have been clear and now we've finally GOTTEN to that 'layoff/recall' part that's sat dormant for decades. And that outlook is actually altruistic because it helps others in not enabling bad behavior.

The 90% ain't true; at least in print. The layoff/recall clauses are clear. And you can't figure out a widespread 'scam' to try to end run them because this is fraud and easily discoverable. Gotta be IAW the contract which is very clear. If the company DOESN'T want it to be that way they need find an incentive (which follows the existing contracts) to right size itself.

I do agree there are varying degrees of enforceability OF the contracts in practice. And as I said in some places it's bulletproof others not so much. But even in the 'not so much' places the company's rolling the dice with its exposure should it choose to break them.

The WuFlu plandemic isn't an excuse to violate them; I still gotta pay the electric bill and although statists are running amok printing money and deferring evictions those bill come due too. There are significant costs associated with this WuFlu scam and some people and some governments seem to be totally (or willfully depending on your beliefs) ignoring the opportunity costs relative to the actual risk. If they want to don masks, impose quarantines, and hide under the bed--and pretend they can print money for work that's never going to be done-- that's fine. But you can count me out of the paradigm.

Contracts are MADE for the bad and contingency times; when things are going well you don't need them (in fact, in an 'honorable' deal all you really need is a word and handshake; contracts are a deference that this doesn't always happen or that things crop up that you didn't think of). So the company won't skate or be off the hook nor will we.

Last edited by Slasher1; 1st Sep 2020 at 15:47.
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 18:05
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Let me be very clear... I will not vote for a pay cut of any type unless CX is willing to right size the pilot force. In other words, I will not take a cut to create jobs for pilots we don’t need.
You will do as you're told.
You will have no vote.
Where do you think you live?
You must be new here.
Stay strong and best of luck.
Coronavirus is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2020, 00:54
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 52
Posts: 22
There is only one "vote" each of us has: to stay or leave.

Since years we discuss and bicker with each other, as if it would matter what we think.

It doesn't.
Sam Ting Wong is offline  

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