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Our last month of "normality"

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Our last month of "normality"

Old 1st Sep 2020, 01:40
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Posts: 558
I think he’s talking about taking a temporary paycut for a defined amount of time. Which seems very reasonable in view of the circumstances.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 01:47
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1
Let me be very clear... I will not vote for a pay cut of any type unless CX is willing to right size the pilot force. In other words, I will not take a cut to create jobs for pilots we don’t need.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 01:54
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: planet earth
Posts: 36
Why are we talking about pay cuts? This is a surplus issue.
CX has a surplus of pilots and will have for years to come. And for this situation there is a very clear clause in the COS.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 02:01
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 138
Most other Legacy carriers cut crews months ago. Why hasn't CX?
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 02:22
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 27N
Age: 55
Posts: 102
No I'm not taking a 35% pay cut to keep an oversized pilot force. I've been furloughed three times in my 30 year career. It's my sincere hope that the world comes to its senses soon and actually uses the data we have on this virus to quantify the risk. World leaders are beginning to see it, but how does one reverse the climate of fear that has been actively promoted among the general population?
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 02:32
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 1
Today, the CDC declared that after a more "thorough review" of the data, only 6 % of total deaths ATTRIBUTED to Covid were caused by the virus alone. The rest, 94%, had other underlying conditions that were in most cases more likely the reason they died. Just let that sink in, and then realise that you, your career and your families futures have been severely compromised because of the greatest mass-hysteria event of modern history, ably captured and manipulated by narcissistic politicians, craven medical authorities and assorted other malignant officials and individuals. Even after this information is now public, the tragic farce continues...
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 02:49
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Underside
Posts: 65
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Let me be very clear... I will not vote for a pay cut of any type unless CX is willing to right size the pilot force. In other words, I will not take a cut to create jobs for pilots we don’t need.

That’s the spirit.
Good on you!

Your position is abundantly clear... no need to continually re affirm it.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 03:13
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Feather Boa View Post
That’s the spirit.
Good on you!

Your position is abundantly clear... no need to continually re affirm it.
I will reaffirm it, continually, as long as we keep hearing cries from our junior crews like 75. If you don’t like it, feel free to block my posts or, even easier, skip past without reading when you see my name. How hard is that? Certainly easier than responding! You must live a life almost entirely in quadrant 4. How sad!
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 03:20
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
I will reaffirm it, continually, as long as we keep hearing cries from our junior crews like 75. If you don’t like it, feel free to block my posts or, even easier, skip past without reading when you see my name. How hard is that? Certainly easier than responding! You must live a life almost entirely in quadrant 4. How sad!
He may be overtaken by demographics when it comes to a vote.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 03:22
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: HK
Posts: 56
Cxorcist truly has to be one of the most miserable people and god help anyone having to fly with him.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 03:51
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 237
Originally Posted by AllWobbly View Post
He may be overtaken by demographics when it comes to a vote.
That may well be irrelevant and I think one of the reasons it's taking so long. You have perhaps 69 different kinds of contracts. Most all are straight seniority -- LIFO. Some are individual contracts, some are EAs, some are CA's, CBAs, etc. They all vary in enforceability (from non-existent to bulletproof or at least in a company-funded litigation quagmire for years). Some could be voted to change (but in these arenas abandoning LIFO is really really unlikely), some cannot, some contracts in one jurisdiction might affect one somewhere else (where it may well be enforceable).

So if you want something OTHER than straight seniority there's no way really to do it. Other than perhaps a voluntary package. It's a difficult puzzle and even the most narcissistic pratts realize this. Complicating things is that in several years things may well recover significantly. So the downline shape of the workforce becomes important also.

The RULE in almost all of them is straight seniority; LIFO. If the company wants to break that rule there are consequences; so I expect they're trying to come up with something to mitigate their exposure.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 04:10
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Cesspit
Posts: 315
Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
Completely agree

BUT

I don't think it's so much 'reckless irresponsibility' as it is trying to figure out some scheme to get around LIFO (which won't be possible without an attractive voluntary separation plan similar to Southwest or other US carriers) without it costing them buckets of money -- and throwing away MORE buckets of money in the process. The government dollars funding the boondoggle probably figure in there somewhere.

But perhaps it's the same thing.
Could you be any more self centred? I gather you’re unaware that 90% of the company’s workforce has no restrictions on who can be made redundant.
Management are working on the future size of the company and when those plans are complete they’ll be enacted and I’m sure they’ll give consideration to contractural clauses only in so far as making an allowance for any breach.

What do people think they’ll be “voting“ on? For those who are Hong Kong based your contract is a unique agreement between yourself and the company. IF the company offers some sort of variation to your current conditions, it’s up to you as an individual to sign it or not sign it as you see fit and then as an individual live with the consequences, much the same way COS08 was offered in 2009. Remember that? Ask yourself how many times you’ve told a COS99 Officer “you know what you signed”, then remind them why they should now be volunteering to amend what they signed.

Last edited by Progress Wanchai; 1st Sep 2020 at 05:05.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 04:18
  #33 (permalink)  
Rie
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Wan Chai
Posts: 6
Given the way things have been the last few years I am truely surprised that Cathay didn’t bring in a P2F program.

There is enough money floating around the streets that someone would pay their own training and a few hours packaged together to become a fully fledged and single striped CX SO...
Rie is online now  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 04:22
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Never You Mind
Posts: 81
The industry is in a poor state of health with no immediate end in sight. Due to a glut of capacity CX finds itself with way too many Pilots (and others).

The solution, as pointed out above, is not to cut pay to subsidise jobs it is unfortunately to reduce numbers. This can be done either voluntarily of it can be forced. Lets hope that this is as clean as it can be and enough people take UPL or early retirement packages. The numbers must meet the amount of work to be done. Hopefully as this increases people can be brought back as soon as possible.

There is absolutely no justification to reduce conditions on a permanent basis. You can guarantee airfares will not be reduced on a permanent basis. Whilst we all may have to endure some temporary modifications to conditions, nobody should be hoodwinked into signing away something forever.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 04:48
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL340
Posts: 34
It will be interesting to see how many will still be working for CX KA on the 2nd January 2021 after the company has given 3 months notice to make changes to our current contracts or conditions of service.

They did this at the turn of the 21st century, when we didn’t have to sign anything, just the fact that we carried on working, signalled our acceptance.
And how many pilots left the company then?

Our contracts, no matter what they are, are only worth three months work.

So quit stabbing each other and think quick and hard, what will you do.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 05:46
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 4,732
Most other Legacy carriers cut crews months ago. Why hasn't CX?
Because CX took the government financial assistance. One of the stipulations was that no people were to be made redundant during the period of help - which ended yesterday.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 05:54
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: australia
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
Today, the CDC declared that after a more "thorough review" of the data, only 6 % of total deaths ATTRIBUTED to Covid were caused by the virus alone. The rest, 94%, had other underlying conditions that were in most cases more likely the reason they died. Just let that sink in, and then realise that you, your career and your families futures have been severely compromised because of the greatest mass-hysteria event of modern history, ably captured and manipulated by narcissistic politicians, craven medical authorities and assorted other malignant officials and individuals. Even after this information is now public, the tragic farce continues...
You truly are tone deaf.

The CDC is now responding to threats from Trump, they've seen what happens (FDA) when you don't follow Trumps lead. The craven ones are the likes of you, a truly selfish individual who's only concern is your income, and that's it.

You are a pathetic person who has described yourself very aptly (narcissistic, craven, malignant and for good measure I'll add, hysterical).
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 06:06
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by FlyingNun View Post
It will be interesting to see how many will still be working for CX KA on the 2nd January 2021 after the company has given 3 months notice to make changes to our current contracts or conditions of service.

They did this at the turn of the 21st century, when we didn’t have to sign anything, just the fact that we carried on working, signalled our acceptance.
And how many pilots left the company then?

Our contracts, no matter what they are, are only worth three months work.

So quit stabbing each other and think quick and hard, what will you do.
Couldn’t agree more. Every time this has happened in the past we backed down. In the current economic climate it’s even less likely that the pilot group will take a unified stance.
AllWobbly is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 06:14
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: sierra village
Posts: 275
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
Today, the CDC declared that after a more "thorough review" of the data, only 6 % of total deaths ATTRIBUTED to Covid were caused by the virus alone. The rest, 94%, had other underlying conditions that were in most cases more likely the reason they died. Just let that sink in, and then realise that you, your career and your families futures have been severely compromised because of the greatest mass-hysteria event of modern history, ably captured and manipulated by narcissistic politicians, craven medical authorities and assorted other malignant officials and individuals. Even after this information is now public, the tragic farce continues...
Do you have a link to this please, I’d like to be able to use it in a “discussion“ I’m having with the nannies.

The CDC web side was not explicit.
lucille is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2020, 07:15
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SAUDI
Posts: 283
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
Today, the CDC declared that after a more "thorough review" of the data, only 6 % of total deaths ATTRIBUTED to Covid were caused by the virus alone. The rest, 94%, had other underlying conditions that were in most cases more likely the reason they died. Just let that sink in, and then realise that you, your career and your families futures have been severely compromised because of the greatest mass-hysteria event of modern history, ably captured and manipulated by narcissistic politicians, craven medical authorities and assorted other malignant officials and individuals. Even after this information is now public, the tragic farce continues...
Well done. You have found out it is all a conspiracy with all Governments in collusion (as has happened numerous times) to gain more control of their people (particularly China, Iran and Iraq etc) and curtail CLIMATE CHANGE. And you also have unearthed it’s all aimed at pilots and making the commercial airline’s go bankrupt.
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