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The end of arapa

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The end of arapa

Old 12th Aug 2020, 07:48
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: May 2020
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 30
The end of arapa

Todays Q3 email doesnít have the best outlook for the next 3 years. Cutbacks will happen, and pilots arenít immune.

Every pilot Iíve flown with since the beginning of this crisis, who is on arapa, thinks that they will come out of this on the same contract and terms that theyíre on today. They are in complete denial that this will be one of the first items the company will cut come Q4. They believe that they, and only they, can captain these 747s, 777s, and Airbuses safely. Cadet pilots arenít qualified to be captains. Only arapa pilots are good and experienced enough to do the job and thatís why they wonít be losing their housing.

So the question I ask is; when will you arapa pilots join the rest of the world. Weíre all going to come out of this with some loss. Why do you feel invincible? How fast will you sign over to a new contract once itís the only one being offered by the company?

I respect you all, but itís time to stop living in dreamland.
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 10:53
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
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Great idea from the newbie!
Letís roll over and just accept whatever happens.
I suppose COS20 for ex-ARAP and all the rest of the pilots laid off, how does that sound? Enjoy your time off.
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 12:42
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
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Iím probably taking a trollís bait, but I love the way some relative newcomers (on HKPA?) are continuously putting ARAP up in the line of fire (hey, shoot here first!)

Of course, the same will happen to them later on in their careers, when all the ARAP recipients are gone and they now have the best package compared to the COS18s that joined after them. And so on and so forth, in this professionĎs implacable race to the bottom, where the most disheartening aspect of all is watching your own colleagues cheer management on.
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 13:27
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Join Date: Dec 1998
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I was hoping that one, just a single one of the above posts would demonstrate a single quality; that of grammar. Sadly, not only are they all lacking in that basic quality, they also demonstrate why this profession is probably doomed. Foolish, envious and short sighted people now inhabit too many seats at this airline. I am in the Four Seasons/mid levels/DB townhouse (pick one) because I am availing myself of the contractual terms that I signed up for. Something about "a standard of living commensurate with that which I would enjoy in my home country". A big reason I agreed to the CX contract that I signed. That being said, do you feel that CX is obligated to honour my contract? And if not, then why should they honour yours (as meager as it may be). The remaining ARAPA pilots are not the problem in this company. The problem is a provably incompetent management. The loss on fuel hedging the past several years would have alone provided funds to put every single pilot onto ARAPA. So no, I don't accept the premise you raise. I, and my other ARAPA colleagues are guilty of nothing more than working within the contract that we were offered by CX when we considered joining. Like all else in that contract, I expect it to be honoured if I fulfill my duties faithfully towards the company. So far, I have done so to the letter. For that reason I expect management to do the same towards me. That's how contracts work.
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 13:37
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Join Date: Apr 2018
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Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
I was hoping that one, just a single one of the above posts would demonstrate a single quality; that of grammar. Sadly, not only are they all lacking in that basic quality, they also demonstrate why this profession is probably doomed. Foolish, envious and short sighted people now inhabit too many seats at this airline. I am in the Four Seasons/mid levels/DB townhouse (pick one) because I am availing myself of the contractual terms that I signed up for. Something about "a standard of living commensurate with that which I would enjoy in my home country". A big reason I agreed to the CX contract that I signed. That being said, do you feel that CX is obligated to honour my contract? And if not, then why should they honour yours (as meager as it may be). The remaining ARAPA pilots are not the problem in this company. The problem is a provably incompetent management. The loss on fuel hedging the past several years would have alone provided funds to put every single pilot onto ARAPA. So no, I don't accept the premise you raise. I, and my other ARAPA colleagues are guilty of nothing more than working within the contract that we were offered by CX when we considered joining. Like all else in that contract, I expect it to be honoured if I fulfill my duties faithfully towards the company. So far, I have done so to the letter. For that reason I expect management to do the same towards me. That's how contracts work.
Ever hear of paragraphs, grammar Nazi?
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 13:49
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Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 101
The senior pilots have made sacrifices as well. Already into the second SLS, No 13th month for two of the past three years (and about to be three of the past four). Profit sharing nothing more than a formula that will never again pay out a penny to the staff. So yes, I feel that major sacrifices have already been made, by me and everyone else. Fear is the company's best friend at the moment, and it is ably demonstrated by the posts on this thread. I have no objection to agreeing temporary changes to our pay and benefits providing they are negotiated and agreed. They must include a snap back provision once the company is again profitable. Otherwise, it is yet another case of the "company never letting a good crisis go to waste". There is no career to be had under those terms.
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 14:23
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Exactly. Temporary pay sacrifices (even significant ones) are fine and I think most have been more than happy to accept them, and will accept more, lasting as long as the crisis lasts. This is an unprecedented situation and we all know that.

Permanent cuts to terms and conditions are a different story and would simply be opportunistic cost-cutting. When things pick up again (and they will) you wonít ever be getting those back.

If they need more cost cutting than that, then they have to start getting rid of people (which I suspect they need to do, regardless). How they do that is up to them.

Until then, stop offering up your colleaguesí terms and conditions on the sacrificial altar.


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Old 12th Aug 2020, 14:41
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Join Date: Sep 2014
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Originally Posted by Coronavirus View Post
Todays Q3 email doesnít have the best outlook for the next 3 years. Cutbacks will happen, and pilots arenít immune.

Every pilot Iíve flown with since the beginning of this crisis, who is on arapa, thinks that they will come out of this on the same contract and terms that theyíre on today. They are in complete denial that this will be one of the first items the company will cut come Q4. They believe that they, and only they, can captain these 747s, 777s, and Airbuses safely. Cadet pilots arenít qualified to be captains. Only arapa pilots are good and experienced enough to do the job and thatís why they wonít be losing their housing.

So the question I ask is; when will you arapa pilots join the rest of the world. Weíre all going to come out of this with some loss. Why do you feel invincible? How fast will you sign over to a new contract once itís the only one being offered by the company?

I respect you all, but itís time to stop living in dreamland.
What a vacuous load of misguided bollocks. Delete this thread due to a complete lack of substance.
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 15:23
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 142
Lose is a verb that means “to fail to win, to misplace, or to free oneself from something or someone.” Loose is an adjective that means “not tight.

Herewego75, please learn how to spell.
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 16:16
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Originally Posted by Dilbert68 View Post
Lose is a verb that means “to fail to win, to misplace, or to free oneself from something or someone.” Loose is an adjective that means “not tight.

Herewego75, please learn how to spell.
Bugger, the spelling police are about. At your beds everyone.
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 17:47
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Originally Posted by Dilbert68 View Post
Lose is a verb that means “to fail to win, to misplace, or to free oneself from something or someone.” Loose is an adjective that means “not tight.

Herewego75, please learn how to spell.
For God’s sake, why can’t people like you learn to include closing quotation marks?
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 18:31
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*Popcorn chewing intensifies*
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 23:46
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Join Date: Feb 2020
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And once arapa is gone, what do you think will be next their next target? That's right, your beloved HKPA.
It amazes me the glee that some have over the demise of arapa without realizing the detrimental impact it will have on their own contracts in the future.
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Old 13th Aug 2020, 00:23
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by doolay View Post
And once arapa is gone, what do you think will be next their next target? That's right, your beloved HKPA.
It amazes me the glee that some have over the demise of arapa without realizing the detrimental impact it will have on their own contracts in the future.
Indeed, but thatís the benefit of a dumbed down workforce. They arenít even thinking beyond their next meal. Forget about chess, checkers is a challenge.
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Old 13th Aug 2020, 01:26
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Originally Posted by doolay View Post
And once arapa is gone, what do you think will be next their next target? That's right, your beloved HKPA.
It amazes me the glee that some have over the demise of arapa without realizing the detrimental impact it will have on their own contracts in the future.
I was going to start as an SO earlier this year, but thanks to Covid, that was cancelled and I am now unemployed and looking to start from the bottom once again (likely chucking bags into aircraft in the bush). Despite this, I truly hope CX sticks to LIFO even if it means I won't be flying.. erm babysitting... a CX aircraft for a handful of years or more, for the exact reason you stated. The last thing I want is for all of the experience to leave the flightdeck and then to have my contract slashed during the next crisis. Although, COS18 means nothing anyways with all of the "at company's discretion," so maybe it would happen anyways. Anyhow, once you accept anything other than what the contract states, you've set the precedence for the company to do whatever they want as they please. Take short term concessions, but please don't take any permanent concessions.
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Old 13th Aug 2020, 06:14
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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Originally Posted by doolay View Post
And once arapa is gone, what do you think will be next their next target? That's right, your beloved HKPA.
It amazes me the glee that some have over the demise of arapa without realizing the detrimental impact it will have on their own contracts in the future.
Has anyone that wants to scrap ARAPA realized that any new contract comes with age 65 retirement?

What do you think that does to upgrade times in a shrinking airline?

We should all be hoping people get to stay on COS 99 and leave at 55.
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Old 13th Aug 2020, 06:28
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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coronavirus - clearly we didn't fly together ;-)

Thanks to the failure of TA16 and TA18 we don't have any pesky legal restrictions on changes to ARAP or HKPA. Minor changes can be done with impunity, wholesale changes are 'challengeable' in court. But given the economic environment we find ourselves in, what would be considered 'wholesale' with an airline making a profit vs 'wholesale' with an airline losing $1.5Billion a month is debatable.

There has been a long term degradation in our terms. It is not the newcomer's fault - I remember some on A scale complaining about B scalers arriving. Then ASL - then COS08, then HKPA, then COS18. If the deal was so bad, people wouldn't come. Market forces!

A year from now I will be grateful to have/keep my job - I will be even more grateful if my employment terms(I mean $$$) are close to what I got prior to SLS. I will be gob smacked if they are the same. As the saying goes, never waste a crisis. All airlines will try to make themselves leaner out of all this. And that means- us - where else can they trim?

PS to spelling and grammar nazis - I do numbers not English - fire away at errors but I don't care ;-)

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Old 14th Aug 2020, 04:08
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Join Date: Jul 2011
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ARAP is certainly one of the "low-hanging fruit" that I fully expect the company to take an axe to. What seems to contradict this though, is the offer to continue to pay this allowance while people are on the latest Unpaid Leave offer going through to March next year.

The out-going GMA gave us a 10-year deal on ARAP so we could plan with some degree of certainty. Maybe they're going to honour this? Large changes could potentially bankrupt some people (though no-one saw Covid coming and planned accordingly). Maybe they're going to slowly turn the tap off as leases come up for renewal. It's anyone's guess.
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Old 14th Aug 2020, 08:57
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Originally Posted by mothy1583 View Post
(though no-one saw Covid coming and planned accordingly).
Correction if I may: No one knew it would be COVID but many knew the financial and economic system had to end sometime and some were even prepared for the changes that are being brought about by COVID.
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Old 15th Aug 2020, 04:56
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 7
I hope I am wrong and we will all be happily flying soon, but we all know that won't happen.[/QUOTE]

Iím sure you are right with parking a chunk of the fleet and the following quote:
On possible job cuts in 2020, CEO Augustus Tang said: ďIt is inevitable we will need to make difficult decisionsĒ

Iíd also wager that before long theyíll start the process of new contracts sign here or else.

On that gloomy note Iíll sign off 😂.
Good luck everybody.
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