Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

CX management. Moral Turpidude

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

CX management. Moral Turpidude

Old 14th Jun 2020, 04:17
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Rabbit Hutch
Posts: 83
Originally Posted by 1_of_600 View Post
...and there is the reason that many people disagree with you. Do you think that it maybe, just a little bit, perhaps, comes across as somewhat ARROGANT?

Has it occurred to you that there are, worldwide, people numbering in 10^8 (that's x00,000,000) who are currently or soon to be unemployed as a result of the shutdowns / lockdowns?

Yet all we hear from you is "...pilots, pilots, pilots. They owe us this, they are obligated to give us that." What about EVERYONE ELSE in the compan(y/ies) who also need to plan for their future?

I am not apologizing for nor defending CX (or any) management in any way. But seriously...

Ferchrissakes get a grip. It is not all about you pilots.
uhh.... You do know it is a Pilotsí site?
Dragon Pacific is offline  
Old 14th Jun 2020, 07:12
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 1,769
Well... yes but all (well, the vast majority ) of pilots are humans, but not all humans are pilots.....................

to be fair the longer the uncertainty goes on the less likely its going to be rain of fire & brimstone wiping out everyone - the planners can see light ahead - it's not pretty, and there will still be a lot of damage done but its not going to be a total wipe out
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 14th Jun 2020, 17:28
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: .
Posts: 2,942
Originally Posted by Dragon Pacific View Post
uhh.... You do know it is a Pilotsí site?
Supposedly Professional ones as well
spannersatcx is offline  
Old 15th Jun 2020, 08:45
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: UK
Age: 49
Posts: 275
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
My criticism is solely directed to the ongoing lack of direction and decision as it pertains to the pilots. This is causing real and unrelenting anxiety to the entire pilot body. I am not suggesting that CX isn't handling the situation effectively, just that they need to announce what their plan is so the rest of us can begin to plan our futures. If anyone thinks we are going to bumble along and come out the other end unscathed...well, can't really help you.
The problem is it is the same with the entire world. Uncertainty everywhere. This is unprecedented. Pretty hard to think of a plan out of this when you donít know what the world is going to look like in 1 month or 12 months.

Itís like giving you an exercise where you are given all the kit and personnel figures and told to plan an airline, except you are not allowed to have any numbers on proposed passengers or where you may or may not be allowed to fly. Itís an impossible exercise.

Everyone around the world is now starting to get fed up with the situation, including me, but until there is clarity there is no solution except to ďbumbleĒ along.
highflyer40 is offline  
Old 15th Jun 2020, 10:45
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: hong kong
Posts: 22
You know what? I'm feeling pretty fortunate right now. Still alive, still got a job.
jobe is offline  
Old 15th Jun 2020, 16:58
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 599
Moral Turpitude & the CCP

Read the link below and think carefully on who exactly is running CX ? Those now obviously in charge (shadow mgmt) have zero respect for any HK Laws (including labour law) and would consider thoughts of "Moral Turpitude" as much as they would which cereal for breakfast !!
CX is now a State Controlled entity and who actually owns the majority of shares have overtly been handed their "irrelevant" papers by Beijing.. Period !


https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...s-were-clipped
Flex88 is offline  
Old 15th Jun 2020, 23:57
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 52
Posts: 34
Flex,

1) Every company in Hong Kong has to follow Chinese rules or it will be out of business. The claim this obedience is somehow the result of a secret state control is wrong. It is a pragmatic necessity, and I am very glad our management is aware of that.
2) Our business is China. Every time we go to work we either transport Chinese people or Chinese goods or both. Face that reality. You are not on the other side, you and every employee of Cathay is supporting the Chinese economy and hence part of the system. Nobody forced you, you agreed to be part of the system by signing your contract. You might comfort yourself by saying you are actually a citizen of the free and independent Asia world city Hong Kong and your employer is just some ginger English toff. But the truth is you are working for China. You are directly profiting from the Chinese economic growth and you are hence effectively working for China from day one.
3) Your belief in HK law is a tad naive. HK law has no democratic roots whatsoever, HK people never had a voice. Beijing simply replaced the British rule. One country and two systems means one country and that country is China. The British knew that of course. What labor laws? F HK law is not the same as elsewhere and never was, plus industrial conflicts are a universal occurrence anyway. And you knew all that when you signed the contract. You and I decided to work in China for the financial incentives. Like our comrades in Dubai, Abu Dhabi,Qatar, Guangzhou or Singapore we signed up despite the lack of democracy and human rights in our new homes.

Mngmt Mole

you need to stop blaming management for just about everything that doesn't work out in your life. This is a global and very dynamic pandemic, your demands are ludicrous. Plus, don't forget, you can always leave and join companies that are managed the way you like it!

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 16th Jun 2020 at 00:41.
Sam Ting Wong is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 01:47
  #28 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 832
STW. I'm not blaming the company for "everything that hasn't worked out in my life". I am calling out the company for what I know is a cynical and soulless strategy to create extreme levels of expectation management amongst the crew. The based pilots are fearing for not only their jobs, but the very basis of they and their families stability and existence. The HK pilots are being subject to daily articles in the SCMP, the chinese press and CX's own statements that all contain a foreboding as to the future. I understand completely that this current situation isn't of CX managements making, but I certainly hold them accountable for how they manage it. Don't doubt that when the hammer comes down, it will likely be a difficult day for all. The fact that this crisis has been ongoing now for almost 5 months, without any real direction or specifics from our management leaves them as the industry outlier. Don't attribute that to any sense of magnanimity towards the crew from our management. It is simply that it suits them in the overall strategy they are unveiling. CX management have spent 25+ years attacking the conditions of the aircrew. They have just obtained 5 billion USD from the HK Govt, and also sold 6 777's which alone provides them with enough capital to weather the storm. Ironically, if they leave things much longer, there will be too much light on the horizon to justify the most serious outcome. For that reason alone, I suppose the delay may prove fortuitous. It's the apparent complete lack of strategy towards the future that is most disturbing. Watching the serial debacles of the past 25 years I can't say i'm surprised by the current situation. Ultimately, this company has the best aircrew body in the industry, and they need to respect them and treat them properly. We'll see...
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 04:17
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 599
???

Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
Flex,

1) Every company in Hong Kong has to follow Chinese rules or it will be out of business. The claim this obedience is somehow the result of a secret state control is wrong. It is a pragmatic necessity, and I am very glad our management is aware of that.
2) Our business is China. Every time we go to work we either transport Chinese people or Chinese goods or both. Face that reality. You are not on the other side, you and every employee of Cathay is supporting the Chinese economy and hence part of the system. Nobody forced you, you agreed to be part of the system by signing your contract. You might comfort yourself by saying you are actually a citizen of the free and independent Asia world city Hong Kong and your employer is just some ginger English toff. But the truth is you are working for China. You are directly profiting from the Chinese economic growth and you are hence effectively working for China from day one.
3) Your belief in HK law is a tad naive. HK law has no democratic roots whatsoever, HK people never had a voice. Beijing simply replaced the British rule. One country and two systems means one country and that country is China. The British knew that of course. What labor laws? F HK law is not the same as elsewhere and never was, plus industrial conflicts are a universal occurrence anyway. And you knew all that when you signed the contract. You and I decided to work in China for the financial incentives. Like our comrades in Dubai, Abu Dhabi,Qatar, Guangzhou or Singapore we signed up despite the lack of democracy and human rights in our new homes.

Mngmt Mole

you need to stop blaming management for just about everything that doesn't work out in your life. This is a global and very dynamic pandemic, your demands are ludicrous. Plus, don't forget, you can always leave and join companies that are managed the way you like it!
Oh, I'm sorry. I was under the impression that it was a Public Companies Board and its Directors that run and manage a corporation.. Let me know what books you studied that indicate G men from other countries run the show..
BTW, "my" life has worked out perfectly thank you very much however as you seem to root for the other team and its methods, I'm not as optimistic about yours...
Flex88 is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 09:36
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: shoe box
Posts: 354
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
Ultimately, this company has the best aircrew body in the industry
All hail the almighty CX sky gods ...
Sue Ridgepipe is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 10:27
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Gerloz
Posts: 312
Originally Posted by Sue Ridgepipe View Post
All hail the almighty CX sky gods ...

And your point is ?
Globocnik is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 11:26
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: hong kong
Posts: 16
She means you're a prima donna Herr Globočnik.
badge42 is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 12:09
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: hong kong
Posts: 16
I've got another issue, apart from some 'Kunt' using a Nazi War Criminal as a pseudonym.

mngmt mole wrote this..... 'Do NOT think that you can treat your pilots with contempt and abuse.'

Hey, M&M. Ever look at yourself in the mirror? I want you to make another post and state that you have never, ever written anything on PPRunNe quite deliberately treating your junior pilots with 'contempt and abuse'. I dare you. Only 800+ posts for us to get a glimpse of your mind.
badge42 is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 12:22
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: hong kong
Posts: 16
Ever wondered why the Cathay Pilot group has no strength? No cohesion. No Camaraderie. No Esprit De Corps?

Look in the mirror Mate. The answers are right there. ;-)

We have seen no leadership from the likes of you.
badge42 is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 18:06
  #35 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 832
Feel free to troll through all 800. I'll happily stand by everything i've written. Each post reflective of the time and subject in point. CX does have the best "aircrew body" in the industry, but that doesn't mean that all parts of it are well thought through. Overall standards are the highest in the industry. You might want to reflect on the reason for that....it might have something to do with the legacy experience and backgrounds of the remaining senior crew. We can revisit this subject 15 years from now to perhaps reconsider. In the meantime, the company is looking to trash everyone's careers to turn CX into just another asian airline. Don't doubt it. And btw...you have no idea what sort of leadership I have or have not provided. In my now 30 years plus in the company, I've done my share of lifting...and my share of screwing up as well ;-),
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2020, 01:38
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Posts: 550
Don’t worry Badge and Sue, every single legacy carrier in the world is convinced they have the “best aircrew body in the industry”
main_dog is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2020, 02:02
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8
It's starting to look like Cathay Pacific is positioning itself to be last man standing, on the doorstep of the fastest growing aviation market in the world. If they pull it off a lot of great stuff in the pipeline for the whole company. Who knows maybe Pilots & management might be able to bury the Hatchett finally, now that would be nice.
Busbitch is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2020, 02:42
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: shoe box
Posts: 354
Yeah that's true main_dog, I think FIGJAM is the appropriate term we used to use.
Sue Ridgepipe is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2020, 02:49
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,793
Originally Posted by main_dog View Post
Don’t worry Badge and Sue, every single legacy carrier in the world is convinced they have the “best aircrew body in the industry”
I thought it just a Hong Kong thing? Very seventies!

The game's evolved. Best aircrew? Industrially, CRM wise, technically, adaptability, or everyday skills set. Sectors make a difference- also, are you allowed to fly visually or expected to circle?

I'd goes as far to consider how peers are supported, both structurally and voluntarily. A high command failure rate too, isn't a measure of the the aircrew bodys' capabilities but an often appalling reflection of the pilot body itself.

We could talk LOSA and demerit points in the PRC. I've heard the board a bit more interested in this than if you flew Phantoms in the Cold War. As I said, a very seventies attitude and believe it at your own peril. We are down the road where you are literally as good as your last flight. Wouldn't want to be cocking up in this environment- Just Culture is for good times- with so much at stake when flying into the PRC for example, its almost best to have a wartime like diligence.
Gnadenburg is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2020, 04:19
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 52
Posts: 34
The likelihood of dying in an air crash is 0.00000003 % per trip or 1 in 30 million.

Statistically it doesn't really matter which airline you choose, at least not from a safety point of view.

Any discussion among pilots of regular airlines who is "better" or "the best" is cringeworthy.

Better in what? By what measurement?
Simply absurd.

PS even the worst third world carrier is safer than your Uber to the airport.


Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 17th Jun 2020 at 07:46.
Sam Ting Wong is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.