PR Holders Verses Work Permits
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In at least one of the jurisdictions offshore fiscal responsibility will eventually be tied to the parent corporation so there's no 'shell corporation' shield. The only option to evade this would be for the parent to go bankrupt and place the asset distribution to creditors (which would include obligations toward unpaid pilots) before a bankruptcy court. I have no idea how this would work or if it even could work for an entity like CX.
So any involuntary furlough out of seniority would be a huge expensive quagmire. Doesn't mean they wouldn't try it with some scheme but in the long run IMHO they'll likely lose the case. Be interesting to see what they come up with.
The easiest way to avoid the mess is simply to furlough by seniority -- which is exactly what the contract says -- and/or have an attractive voluntary package of temp leave/retirement. Which is what US carriers (who have similar seniority based contract provisions) did. There's really not any way around seniority based furlough (if it comes to needing to furlough) that won't result in legal action (which given the specifics of the contract they're likely to lose anyway) and be costly for the company in any case. But I guess it'll give something for the newly furloughed guys to do. Guess we'll see one way or another.
So any involuntary furlough out of seniority would be a huge expensive quagmire. Doesn't mean they wouldn't try it with some scheme but in the long run IMHO they'll likely lose the case. Be interesting to see what they come up with.
The easiest way to avoid the mess is simply to furlough by seniority -- which is exactly what the contract says -- and/or have an attractive voluntary package of temp leave/retirement. Which is what US carriers (who have similar seniority based contract provisions) did. There's really not any way around seniority based furlough (if it comes to needing to furlough) that won't result in legal action (which given the specifics of the contract they're likely to lose anyway) and be costly for the company in any case. But I guess it'll give something for the newly furloughed guys to do. Guess we'll see one way or another.
In Hong Kong and the majority of our bases we have redundancy and the associated redundancy payment which is better than furlough as you don't get any severance payment on furlough with a US airline, so if and when we make cuts at Cathay they will be redundancies not furloughs, and they will come with the legally required payouts! This is why it's much better for the company to negotiate a reduction in wages and conditions (in the short term) than to start making employees redundant.
The best way to view this is through the prism of senior management. What would you do if you were in their boots and looking for a short term quick fix to enhance the company’s bottom line and your own reputation as a top gun “negotiator “?
Mgmt Mole is completely correct when he says that this Covid19 crisis has presented them (and every other airline manager in the world) with a once in a lifetime opportunity to restructure the airline. To be seen to be doing nothing will be viewed as weakness by their peers.
Mgmt Mole is completely correct when he says that this Covid19 crisis has presented them (and every other airline manager in the world) with a once in a lifetime opportunity to restructure the airline. To be seen to be doing nothing will be viewed as weakness by their peers.
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There is no furlough provision in Hong Kong COS, traditionally furlough for airline pilots is an American thing where by you are simply no longer required and you don't work and you don't get any pay, if and when things pick up you get to come back to work if you so choose! This does not exist at Cathay, nor does it exist in Hong Kong, or the majority of the on-shored base locations, no idea what the CBa on the USA bases says.
In Hong Kong and the majority of our bases we have redundancy and the associated redundancy payment which is better than furlough as you don't get any severance payment on furlough with a US airline, so if and when we make cuts at Cathay they will be redundancies not furloughs, and they will come with the legally required payouts! This is why it's much better for the company to negotiate a reduction in wages and conditions (in the short term) than to start making employees redundant.
In Hong Kong and the majority of our bases we have redundancy and the associated redundancy payment which is better than furlough as you don't get any severance payment on furlough with a US airline, so if and when we make cuts at Cathay they will be redundancies not furloughs, and they will come with the legally required payouts! This is why it's much better for the company to negotiate a reduction in wages and conditions (in the short term) than to start making employees redundant.
FWIW, many US carriers DO have pay protection furlough/layoff provisions in their CBA. As does CX (6 months pay protection on one form of the contract). Which is one of the many reasons US carriers sought voluntary (paid) leave.
Perhaps we're stuck in semantics.
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Which would be most welcomed by the based senior demographic. Base closure requires 90 days notice, if chosen not to return to Hong Kong 6 months redundancy pay. One jurisdiction in particular would require up to 4 weeks severance per YOS for Captains up to 3 weeks for FOs.
Everything considered a nice package, which most likely makes it financially unattractive, at least in the immediate future, to close the bases. Negotiating a Collective Agreement with reduced terms is more likely then a base closure, IMHO.
FYI, the Canadian FA’s are receiving 1 week severance per YOS when the YVR cabin crew base will be closed in June. CX followed labor law and their collective agreement when closing the base. Why do some on this board think it would be any different for the pilot bases?
Another question someone has brought up is what happens if the HKG Immigration department refuses to issue work permits for those affected by the base closure without HKG PR and wishing to return to Hong Kong?
Anyways, we will know pretty soon. One thing is for sure, the new CX will be a very different company when the dust has settled.
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A friend of mine just received a new response from the director of immigration.
"From applications submitted under the General Employment Policy, justifications for employing the applicant in Hong Kong and reasons why the post cannot be filled by locals are required to be provided by the sponsoring company in the application form. It aims to protect the local market."
Hong Kong Airlines and many other dodgy aviation companies in Hong Kong have been getting away with abusing the ease in which the General Employment Policy works.
There is no other country on the planet where they would let go of their local workforce and then retain foreigners on employment contracts.
Are you a permanent resident or passport holder in Hong Kong? don't be let go and have pilots on general employment contracts take your jobs.
Throw your company and throw these pilots under the bus enough is enough.
"From applications submitted under the General Employment Policy, justifications for employing the applicant in Hong Kong and reasons why the post cannot be filled by locals are required to be provided by the sponsoring company in the application form. It aims to protect the local market."
Hong Kong Airlines and many other dodgy aviation companies in Hong Kong have been getting away with abusing the ease in which the General Employment Policy works.
There is no other country on the planet where they would let go of their local workforce and then retain foreigners on employment contracts.
Are you a permanent resident or passport holder in Hong Kong? don't be let go and have pilots on general employment contracts take your jobs.
Throw your company and throw these pilots under the bus enough is enough.
Last edited by EddyTemple; 10th Jun 2020 at 16:33.
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Consider someone who has been here 6 years and how much tax they’ve paid into the system vs a cadet straight from training. Who is funding the bailout the taxpayer?
Last edited by AllWobbly; 10th Jun 2020 at 05:56.
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Really sorry Wobbly, but as we all know, you have no status in HKG as a non PR, if you haven't lived here for 7 years. Yes, that sucks. Bad luck. But part of the problem with this world is people crying about things not being fair, going all snow flake on us, when they knew the rules. For instance, bailing from wherever you came from and taking a punt with Hong Kong. Terrible luck, sorry.
We all took a massive risk coming to Hong Kong as mercenaries and throwing our morals to the wind.
As for Hong Kong Airlines. For god's sake, will you keel over already. This is unbearable and ridiculous. What is going on? What a drain on some mainlanders money.
We all took a massive risk coming to Hong Kong as mercenaries and throwing our morals to the wind.
As for Hong Kong Airlines. For god's sake, will you keel over already. This is unbearable and ridiculous. What is going on? What a drain on some mainlanders money.
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Hi I think Eddy is a labour employment lawyer.
Relating to HKA a lot of guys were let go who had been in the company 7 years or longer and hence were PR status.
Whereas guys who are still on emplyment visas are still working.
basically anyone whose 3 year contract was up for renewal, over 60s or anyone deemed to have had past issues(failed command , warning letters, missed duties ) were selected by hr for the chop. whether PR or not.
Think they must be trying to build a case for unfair dismissal.
Relating to HKA a lot of guys were let go who had been in the company 7 years or longer and hence were PR status.
Whereas guys who are still on emplyment visas are still working.
basically anyone whose 3 year contract was up for renewal, over 60s or anyone deemed to have had past issues(failed command , warning letters, missed duties ) were selected by hr for the chop. whether PR or not.
Think they must be trying to build a case for unfair dismissal.
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As for Hong Kong Airlines. For god's sake, will you keel over already. This is unbearable and ridiculous. What is going on? What a drain on some mainlanders money.[/QUOTE]
sorry we cant all get a bailout from carrie. just keel over and have more pilots lose their jobs you insensitive prick. It could have been you guys getting your marching orders if they hadn't gone begging to the government.
sorry we cant all get a bailout from carrie. just keel over and have more pilots lose their jobs you insensitive prick. It could have been you guys getting your marching orders if they hadn't gone begging to the government.
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Really sorry Wobbly, but as we all know, you have no status in HKG as a non PR, if you haven't lived here for 7 years. Yes, that sucks. Bad luck. But part of the problem with this world is people crying about things not being fair, going all snow flake on us, when they knew the rules. For instance, bailing from wherever you came from and taking a punt with Hong Kong. Terrible luck, sorry.
We all took a massive risk coming to Hong Kong as mercenaries and throwing our morals to the wind.
As for Hong Kong Airlines. For god's sake, will you keel over already. This is unbearable and ridiculous. What is going on? What a drain on some mainlanders money.
We all took a massive risk coming to Hong Kong as mercenaries and throwing our morals to the wind.
As for Hong Kong Airlines. For god's sake, will you keel over already. This is unbearable and ridiculous. What is going on? What a drain on some mainlanders money.
That may will be true😂. I was just commenting on the irony of paying for the bail out indirectly and getting fired to boot. Let’s hope it doesn’t happen.
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Has HKA or any other aviation company in Hong Kong done this to you?, then throw them under the bus and get the ball rolling.
Google : Online Reporting Of Immigration Offences Hong Kong and start reporting
It is 100% anonymous, you can report your employer and you can report the employee's who have blocked your employment under work visa contracts in the same rank.
Show me a country in the world where the local pilots will be displaced by hundreds of imports under general employment contracts over locals - it doesn't happen.
There's a big bus coming and it's time to start throwing the Hong Kong Airlines management and their employment visa monkeys under the bus.
Google : Online Reporting Of Immigration Offences Hong Kong and start reporting
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as long as, in this case, CX makes money... no one will care where you come from to fly the aircraft.
-would australians cry wolf if expats took their jobs.... yeah
-would brits cry wolf if expats took their jobs..,. yeah
-would the french cry wolf if expats took their jobs.... sacre bleu!
Good luck fighting any company in HK..... your neck will be on the line at the first excuse.... sim etc.....
It is a sad reality of HK... the next cheapest guy will happily sit on your "chair".
-would australians cry wolf if expats took their jobs.... yeah
-would brits cry wolf if expats took their jobs..,. yeah
-would the french cry wolf if expats took their jobs.... sacre bleu!
Good luck fighting any company in HK..... your neck will be on the line at the first excuse.... sim etc.....
It is a sad reality of HK... the next cheapest guy will happily sit on your "chair".
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Eddy temple
whilst understanding from the emphasis put in your repeated posts that you may be vulnerable yourself, for reasons various such as juniority within your company, regardless of the recent comms you have had with immigration, and your attempts to rally support, it is not as clear cut as you would like to think.
This issue, (within CX and not your airline) was looked at in depth some years ago around GFC time. Both sides, union and management investigated and were re-assured that for a variety of reasons, not least of which were the technical role, experience, balanced demographics, that there was no requirement to simply shed those who were not PR or HK locals.
So keep banging on your drum all you want, just because you keep saying so, doesn't make it true, regardless of how much you think a low level immigration staffs viewpoint has been interpreted in your favour.
Good luck either way.
whilst understanding from the emphasis put in your repeated posts that you may be vulnerable yourself, for reasons various such as juniority within your company, regardless of the recent comms you have had with immigration, and your attempts to rally support, it is not as clear cut as you would like to think.
This issue, (within CX and not your airline) was looked at in depth some years ago around GFC time. Both sides, union and management investigated and were re-assured that for a variety of reasons, not least of which were the technical role, experience, balanced demographics, that there was no requirement to simply shed those who were not PR or HK locals.
So keep banging on your drum all you want, just because you keep saying so, doesn't make it true, regardless of how much you think a low level immigration staffs viewpoint has been interpreted in your favour.
Good luck either way.
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Eddy
CX needs foreign pilots as there is no local aviation of any significance. Experience does matter. With all due respect to those who pass through the cadet scheme, become SOs, then Relief FOs and then Captains, they don't bring any experience to the operation. And time as a SO or Relief doesn't add a great deal. The insurers won't let CX dilute the aircrew with too many locals.
I have been told by some Hong Kongers that they fly CX because of the foreign pilots.
CX needs foreign pilots as there is no local aviation of any significance. Experience does matter. With all due respect to those who pass through the cadet scheme, become SOs, then Relief FOs and then Captains, they don't bring any experience to the operation. And time as a SO or Relief doesn't add a great deal. The insurers won't let CX dilute the aircrew with too many locals.
I have been told by some Hong Kongers that they fly CX because of the foreign pilots.
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The thread started by talking about HKA laying off Permanent Residents and retaining pilots under General Employment Contracts. Under the guise of HK basic law this is not allowed. There has to be a justification made under the General Employment Contract to the HK Immigration department as to why the local work force was unable to fill.Eddys quote.
For all the CX me me pilots who claim the locals want roger from bendigo as a skipper?
You do know hes been talking about HKA and their policy of how they fire people the whole time. If you bothered to read from the start.
Eddy I hate to say it but if someone's dead weight doesn't matter if they're PR or not. why would you keep someone that shouldn't be doing their job just because they have done their 7 years or whatever? HKA has barely 30 pilots who are HK passport holders( 98% are still employed in flight ops)The rest(all foreigners) got citizenship due spending the required 7 years or greater here.
Some of the names mentioned that were let go shouldn't be managers at McDonalds let alone in command of an A330.
I feel for you if you've been affected but your rhetoric is starting to sound like a "have you been involved in an injury at work" claim.
I'm sure relevant parties that want to go down that route will try, but the cx brethren are correct, you wont stand a chance if you want to take HKA on
Have you ever thought hk immigration might be in agreement to keep a competent person on a work permit rather than a liability that's managed to claim citizenship.
For all the CX me me pilots who claim the locals want roger from bendigo as a skipper?
You do know hes been talking about HKA and their policy of how they fire people the whole time. If you bothered to read from the start.
Eddy I hate to say it but if someone's dead weight doesn't matter if they're PR or not. why would you keep someone that shouldn't be doing their job just because they have done their 7 years or whatever? HKA has barely 30 pilots who are HK passport holders( 98% are still employed in flight ops)The rest(all foreigners) got citizenship due spending the required 7 years or greater here.
Some of the names mentioned that were let go shouldn't be managers at McDonalds let alone in command of an A330.
I feel for you if you've been affected but your rhetoric is starting to sound like a "have you been involved in an injury at work" claim.
I'm sure relevant parties that want to go down that route will try, but the cx brethren are correct, you wont stand a chance if you want to take HKA on
Have you ever thought hk immigration might be in agreement to keep a competent person on a work permit rather than a liability that's managed to claim citizenship.
Last edited by SW1; 11th Jun 2020 at 13:06.
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That being said, no one really cares as to your level of ignorance. It’s actually impressive you’ve done as well as you have.
To help the even more ignorant, how about comparing your remuneration against that of your equivalent rank joining CX now. Let’s see what you really learnt in year 10. Ask an EK FO if he’ll decline your position. Or if a Hong Kong court will give you anything more than the 49ers.
A lot about life is learnt well after year 10.
Last edited by Progress Wanchai; 11th Jun 2020 at 14:17.
Year 11 is when it gets complicated,
That being said, no one really cares as to your level of ignorance. It’s actually impressive you’ve done as well as you have.
To help the even more ignorant, how about comparing your remuneration against that of your equivalent rank joining CX now. Let’s see what you really learnt in year 10. Ask an EK FO if he’ll decline your position. Or if a Hong Kong court will give you anything more than the 49ers.
A lot about life is learnt well after year 10.
That being said, no one really cares as to your level of ignorance. It’s actually impressive you’ve done as well as you have.
To help the even more ignorant, how about comparing your remuneration against that of your equivalent rank joining CX now. Let’s see what you really learnt in year 10. Ask an EK FO if he’ll decline your position. Or if a Hong Kong court will give you anything more than the 49ers.
A lot about life is learnt well after year 10.
