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The Coming Battle

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

The Coming Battle

Old 10th Apr 2020, 06:26
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: far west
Posts: 152
Confusing Traf. ( good) intentions with his flying abilities.🙄
Stick to the point.
Some of the old school chaps weren’t exactly “sharp”. Just a personal thought. Two different points.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 07:07
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: HK
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
Dsteve, I get it. I fully understand your position. A few years ago you thought you would become an airline pilot and you wanted to join "the Best". In those days it was CX due to the professionalism and integrity of pilots like Traf. They helped build the reputation of this airline where celebrities ranging from kings to prime ministers and rock stars begging to be permitted to sit behind a CX pilot as he flew the IGS. CX pilots were revered throughout the industry. Then more expansion and the standards to get into CX were dropped. Slashed in fact to accept people like YOU. No work opportunities in your home backwater. The prospect of flying a light twin in the outback for the rest of your life. A salary just above minimum wage. So you jumped at the terms and conditions offered by CX. You have no integrity, no professional pride or standing. You're just a little man in a shiny jet that 30 years ago wouldn't have been eligible to wash the outside of it let alone fly it. Henpecked by your wife who thought she was marrying a real jet pilot, someone with the right stuff, you are now stuck in a company that is ruthless and taking every opportunity to screw the class of pilot it recruited not so long ago to replace the elite it once had.
Suck it up Dsteve. You were second rate when you were recruited. They knew it. Your predecessors knew it and sadly you knew it too. You will never be the pilot Traf was/is and it is that fact that eats away at you each night. Traf has earned his retirement. Have you ?
Such staggering arrogance and delusions of grandeur, must surely be satirical?
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 07:34
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Gerloz
Posts: 512
Originally Posted by Air Profit View Post
Feel better now Globo. 😳🙄

Every day mate. Every day.
And I won’t be spending my retirement waxing lyrical about the grandeur that was CX and lurking on here.

Last edited by Globocnik; 10th Apr 2020 at 07:53.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 08:28
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 3,648
Originally Posted by oriental flyer View Post
Asturias ,
‘Trafalgar was not calling for " battle " as you suggested , just that we should be prepared For what is Inevitably coming

You could have fooled me -. Every sentence has the words "oppose", "fight", "struggle" etc in it . Even when he admits that the business will suffer great changes and challenges he's determined that others should draw a line in the sand and fight ..........

V silly IMHO
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 09:36
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: No where
Posts: 891
Originally Posted by Globocnik View Post
Every day mate. Every day.
And I won’t be spending my retirement waxing lyrical about the grandeur that was CX and lurking on here.
To be fair, I believe he's been gone about two years (?) and has posted a handful of times since. I'm sure you'll never "lurk" here again after you've left (as opposed to lurking now ). I also think the recent comments are pertinent and thoughtful, perhaps you would like to actually address them? Btw, CX has gone from grandeur to, well, this thing we now call "CX".
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 09:49
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Gerloz
Posts: 512
Originally Posted by Air Profit View Post
To be fair, I believe he's been gone about two years (?) and has posted a handful of times since. I'm sure you'll never "lurk" here again after you've left (as opposed to lurking now ). I also think the recent comments are pertinent and thoughtful, perhaps you would like to actually address them? Btw, CX has gone from grandeur to, well, this thing we now call "CX".
Yes, thank you, I had noticed the company had changed. Over the years.
If you think his wholly abusive comments re experience and ability merit being described as pertinent and thoughtful, well, we’ll just have to agree to differ.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 09:55
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 125
Originally Posted by YellowFever777 View Post
Such staggering arrogance and delusions of grandeur, must surely be satirical?
Nope sadly I think its a reflection on some of the people who were around when I joined in the dark ages. There were some fantastic blokes and then there were those who confused their net worth with their true worth.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 10:33
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: No where
Posts: 891
You let your guard down with the comment 'wholly abusive' Globo. Obviously, his comments are far from 'wholly abusive’,more cutting to the heart of the matter I would say. A few narcissists in management and the snowflake crowd may find his posts abusive. Not sure that is a problem on balance. Again, why don't you debate the points he made? That is the one thing you seem not willing to do. At least Traf explains his reasoning behind his comments. Btw, you might want to look at the number of post viewings, that says more about the real audience his comments reach. I'm certain management do.

Last edited by Air Profit; 10th Apr 2020 at 10:43.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 11:20
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 3,648
That's a fair point AP - but while he accepts the whole airline business is in free fall, and that there will be dramatic changes all round he takes a position where CX aircrew should fight to keep their current deal - or even fight to improve it.

I'm afraid he's living in a dream world on that issue. There will be thousands of pilots desperate for a job over the next 2-3 years.... if you don't think that will change things across the industry you're in for a big surprise.

Look how the Aussies at QF reacted to "Sunrise" - lots of talk of fighting every inch then +80% in favour of taking the deal , any deal really.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 15:56
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 101
Asturias. What is wrong with Trafalgar advocating that the pilots of CX prepare themselves for what is coming, and devise a strategy to best resist what will surely be the managements wholesale attacks on their conditions? His advice on the matter is sound. He also stated that he felt things would start to turn around soon, and that the company's reaction will be based on opportunism. Surely you know that to be true? If the company wants to attack the bases, then ensure that your only answer is to return on a full benefit package. If the management BELIEVE you are serious in that response, they are far less likely to enact that threat. What is wrong with that advice? Further, the fact that many other pilots are looking for work is irrelevant. CX have to deal with the pilots they have employed now. They can't simply fire them and replace them. Trafalgars advice is pertinent, timely and sound. If you don't think so, then clearly explain why. The ad hominem attacks are frankly reeking of surreptitious management response.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 18:57
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: World
Posts: 11
You're taking advice from people who believe that "celebrities ranging from kings to prime ministers and rock stars begged to be permitted to sit behind a CX pilot as he flew the IGS".

I mean if that's not delusional?

Sorry is this going to trigger the little fan club again?
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 22:47
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 33
Remember, this was the generation that fought for nothing, got given everything, then screwed over anyone following them.

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Old 10th Apr 2020, 23:51
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: No where
Posts: 891
And I have no doubt that this generation will continue to set even lower standards on that score. I imagine Trafalgar suspects the same. Still, no harm in warning us. "None so blind as he who will not hear...".
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 00:19
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Cesspit
Posts: 345
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
Asturias. What is wrong with Trafalgar advocating that the pilots of CX prepare themselves for what is coming, and devise a strategy to best resist what will surely be the managements wholesale attacks on their conditions? His advice on the matter is sound. He also stated that he felt things would start to turn around soon, and that the company's reaction will be based on opportunism. Surely you know that to be true? If the company wants to attack the bases, then ensure that your only answer is to return on a full benefit package. If the management BELIEVE you are serious in that response, they are far less likely to enact that threat. What is wrong with that advice? Further, the fact that many other pilots are looking for work is irrelevant. CX have to deal with the pilots they have employed now. They can't simply fire them and replace them. Trafalgars advice is pertinent, timely and sound. If you don't think so, then clearly explain why. The ad hominem attacks are frankly reeking of surreptitious management response.
Management’s obvious counter move is to make the Hong Kong base as unattractive as possible, even if it’s a “temporary” measure.
Sure, most of the based guys can return to Hong Kong on expat conditions. But what are they exactly?

ARAP. This is purely company policy. Of course what is not company policy is the contractural obligation to provide “Accommodation and Rental Assistance.” What the monetary value of that is will probably be determined by a Hong Kong court. In 5 to 10 years time. Along with HKPA the pilot body missed an opportunity in 2018 to legally define a value to the allowance.

Provident Fund. Company policy.

Education allowance. Company policy.

Talk to any of the individuals who were involved in negotiations during Cx’s last panic attack in 2017. The company is well aware of these cost saving measures and more.
We can’t brush off the fact that thousands of unemployed pilots are now looking for work. We’ve been banging on about market forces and leverage for 5 years. We had it. We chose to blow it. Now market forces and leverage are to management’s advantage. Will they also blow it? Remember, they don’t have to change our contracts by 1 word. Simply amend company policy.

Will guys leave? Undoubtedly. But not as many as would leave during an aviation boom, and their replacements will be easier to find. So management don’t have to “fire and replace” anyone. Simply replace those that chose to leave and they won’t have to do that for some considerable time.

There is a value to legally binding contracts, but a generation of pilots who’d never seen a downturn didn’t understand that. We blew opportunities in 2016 and 2018 to have a defense in place once the wheel turned. I suspect both Hong Kong crew and based crew are about to face the consequences of that.

Last edited by Progress Wanchai; 11th Apr 2020 at 00:56.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 01:44
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 125
“And if you KA pilots don't like it - then you know where the door is! CX and AHK are carrying them at the moment.”

No-Swire is carrying CX, KA and Express.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 05:41
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Gerloz
Posts: 512
“None so blind as he who will not hear...".

Brilliant. Just brilliant. I take it English is not your strongpoint ?

And you wonder why I treat Untied Bat’s pontifications with the contempt they deserve ?
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 06:46
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: No where
Posts: 891
Haha....even I had to laugh at that error. We'll credit that one to your account Globo . Seriously, open your eyes and listen to what Traf has to say.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 07:08
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Gerloz
Posts: 512
Originally Posted by Air Profit View Post
Haha....even I had to laugh at that error. We'll credit that one to your account Globo . Seriously, open your eyes and listen to what Traf has to say.
My eyes are well and truly open and I’ve no doubt we’re in the kak. Just don’t need a retired, vicarious old ‘un to come on here and remind us. We’re perfectly capable of divining that for ourselves.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 07:43
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: No where
Posts: 891
Again, you seem curiously reticent to debate the substance. Great at the off-hand ad hominem however. Traf's advice about a defensive strategy to engage the company in the coming battle seems logical and pertinent. Why don't you offer either contrary facts as to why not, and if that be the case then perhaps you could put your obviously superior english talents to use and offer an alternative. So far all you've accomplished is to sound like someone who really doesn't have much to offer on the subject, other than to try and shout down those who have taken the time to provide an informed opinion.

ps. you do seem seriously lacking in a sense of humour.
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 08:07
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 3,648
I hear what people are saying about being ready for a change in conditions imposed by the management but, like Progress above, I can't see how anyone can expect to win. You have zero leverage here.

In the current state of the world agreements and contracts are being ignored, deferred, torn up in all walks of life. Sure you can sue and maybe get a "win" in 5 or 6 years (the courts are going to be full of other cases for years) but by that time your jobs will have gone for good

You'll have been replaced by other expats and locals. The whole business is going to knocked back for a long, long time
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