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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Well, because when i joined CX it was the other way around. Regardless, I am not begrudging the KA pilots any advantage they may hold. Simply pointing out that CX cannot expect their pilots to quietly sit and be abused while at the same time rubbing shoulders with our colleagues in our dispatch area who are being treated better. We are all owned by one group. I didn't get a 13th month two years ago (and no real profit sharing for the past decade). I will not just go to work as usual if I see my owners treating one group of pilots substantially better than the other. They can not pay me the 13th month, and i'll simply not work a month in return. As long as we understand each other.
Air Profit I'm not sure if you are spiteful or in political parlance, one of Lenin's useful idiots, because you read like the crap our managers try and sprout at Fleet Forums. We don't get more leave than you, we give up our limited G days. Our 13 month is contractual- why did you give up yours? I can't be sure who is paid more but of course, we accepted small pay rises that compounded whilst you rejected them ?
KA pilots fought a bitter CC campaign and not once was CX pilot pay raised. It's professionally impolite and never did we risk the dragging down of others under the same management.
Good luck on your lone wolf industrial campaign. If you all do it I'm sure there's no risk of losing your 13 month. But keep us out of it.
KA pilots fought a bitter CC campaign and not once was CX pilot pay raised. It's professionally impolite and never did we risk the dragging down of others under the same management.
Good luck on your lone wolf industrial campaign. If you all do it I'm sure there's no risk of losing your 13 month. But keep us out of it.
Join Date: Apr 2002
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A Scale/ B Scale/ C Scale/ COS 2018. Why are you going to work as usual now if differing treatment is such an issue?
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Gnadenburg, a bit sensitive I think. I said quite clearly I don't begrudge your benefits. I was simply saying that we effectively all live under the same roof now, and whether or not you agree, it would be very corrosive to victimize the CX pilots yet again. Before it was "out of sight out of mind". Now, not so much. You don't have to agree with my point or my logic, but it is my opinion. I understand that my comments struck close to home for you, that much is obvious. (and no, i'm not spiteful, just a very fed up CX pilot, and some of the points you raise aren't accurate either).
Of course I'm sensitive to unsubstantiated and unfair comments in package comparisons.
And it seems ridiculous to say I'm paid more ( maybe or maybe not ) when you've walked away from pay increases? KA pilots accepted small increases which have compounded with the arguments in favour of this approach being CX's failed industrial campaign and pay stagnation.
I hope you get your 13th month. It would be a mistake to potentially alienate frontline staff further.
And it seems ridiculous to say I'm paid more ( maybe or maybe not ) when you've walked away from pay increases? KA pilots accepted small increases which have compounded with the arguments in favour of this approach being CX's failed industrial campaign and pay stagnation.
I hope you get your 13th month. It would be a mistake to potentially alienate frontline staff further.
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Gnad. You seem to be confusing two different things. None of us begrudge the pay or benefits you get (and I admire the efforts of the KA pilots). CX management have insisted on combining us into "one happy family". When everyone is rubbing shoulders as we now do, it is pretty divisive to treat one group completely differently than the other. Nothing to do with different contracts (in our case, COS99/08/18). Everyone chose those individually. CX pilots have been messed about in an epic fashion for years now, and it is coming to a boil. It's not about the details, it's about the sentiment. CX managers seem to know exactly how to demoralise and mistreat all groups. What AP seems to be saying is that we are sick of being treated so differently on fundamental factors (13th month). Never used to be a problem until our management became greedy. I am glad you have what you do, but there is nothing wrong with AP pointing out to the management that there will be a world of hurt if they try the 13th month outrage again. I know we don't see eye to eye on this, but that's just the way it is. Ultimately, the enemy resides several floors higher, and we both know that. AP wasn't attacking you, he was pointing out that management wants to keep dividing us. He was pointing out just where the division is. You just seem to be upset that he has highlighted it. Not relevant. Both your points, and his are equally fair. The difference is that you turned it into an adhominem attack against AP. That is plain wrong, and quite instructive.
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Air Profit. As pointed out by FreeHills above, you seem outraged at the fact that two pilot groups are being treated differently, but this has been the case within CX for ages now. Did you throw the toys out of the pram when B-scale/C-scale/Cos18 was introduced? Surely those were blatant examples of pilots doing the same job within the same airline, but on vastly different pay packages?
Whenever there is a discussion about how HKPA should be increased, the usual response is "They know what they signed". How is this any different? CX guys knew what they signed when they joined, there was no guaranteed 13th month. KA guys signed their contracts, and then fought for improvements.
I half suspect that the 'injustice' that you feel when looking at what KA get is because for a change you happen to be in the group that is worse off, as opposed to the group of pilots within CX who have always had it better.
Whenever there is a discussion about how HKPA should be increased, the usual response is "They know what they signed". How is this any different? CX guys knew what they signed when they joined, there was no guaranteed 13th month. KA guys signed their contracts, and then fought for improvements.
I half suspect that the 'injustice' that you feel when looking at what KA get is because for a change you happen to be in the group that is worse off, as opposed to the group of pilots within CX who have always had it better.
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Refer to MM's response above, as he explains it better than I did. Not outraged (and definitely not at KA pilots), simply warning CX management that ot continue to treat both pilot groups (comparing seniority) differently in such a gross manner will only lead to personal action to address that. Again, don't take it personally. My fight is with management, not KA pilots. Ultimately, I will enjoy taking a further month off during the next year if necessary. As I did the two years previously.
Refer to MM's response above, as he explains it better than I did. Not outraged (and definitely not at KA pilots), simply warning CX management that ot continue to treat both pilot groups (comparing seniority) differently in such a gross manner will only lead to personal action to address that. Again, don't take it personally. My fight is with management, not KA pilots. Ultimately, I will enjoy taking a further month off during the next year if necessary. As I did the two years previously.
Join Date: Apr 2006
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I don't know the answers but taking "personal action" only hurts your colleagues who have to pick up the slack. Cx don't give a hoot as long as their aircraft get away
The sad thing is that a few simple fixes would go a long way towards easing the frustration responsible for the high sickness rates.
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Air Profit: Is it really the case that CX pilots traded away their 13th month to incorporate it into their pay rise? Would that explain the higher basic salary CX guys get compared to KA?
If that’s the case then there’s really nothing to debate. A discretionary bonus provided by the employer is just that, the comparison with the 13th month we get at KA is a false one.
This place is awash with a million different contracts because the prevailing mentality does not allow for solidarity with any new generation. It is the bed CX and KA pilots made for themselves with the erosion of A scale to begin with and now the situation is what it is. You want to take a month leave? Help yourself I would suggest.
I respect the fact we all have different contracts; I am happy for the guys that are on a better one than I am and I empathise for the people that are on a worse one than I am. That said it doesn’t change anything for me.
Also, KA has been hiring for the last 5 years pretty much. People have obtained commands in less than a year. The opportunity was there to join for anyone that felt the KA contract was significantly better. You get the roster with it as well though, it comes completely free with the package.
In my case I chose to apply to KA because on the long term it was simply a better career prospect and a higher value proposition with the much shorter time to command. In return I don’t get the fancy 777 rosters, monthly OT and nice layovers in premium destinations. Now that we rub shoulders in the briefing office doesn’t change that of course.
If that’s the case then there’s really nothing to debate. A discretionary bonus provided by the employer is just that, the comparison with the 13th month we get at KA is a false one.
This place is awash with a million different contracts because the prevailing mentality does not allow for solidarity with any new generation. It is the bed CX and KA pilots made for themselves with the erosion of A scale to begin with and now the situation is what it is. You want to take a month leave? Help yourself I would suggest.
I respect the fact we all have different contracts; I am happy for the guys that are on a better one than I am and I empathise for the people that are on a worse one than I am. That said it doesn’t change anything for me.
Also, KA has been hiring for the last 5 years pretty much. People have obtained commands in less than a year. The opportunity was there to join for anyone that felt the KA contract was significantly better. You get the roster with it as well though, it comes completely free with the package.
In my case I chose to apply to KA because on the long term it was simply a better career prospect and a higher value proposition with the much shorter time to command. In return I don’t get the fancy 777 rosters, monthly OT and nice layovers in premium destinations. Now that we rub shoulders in the briefing office doesn’t change that of course.
If they do that again, especially as we are now working alongside the KA pilots (13th month, higher salaries, more leave)
Despite embellishment, this is an ill-natured and unsubstantiated statement. Near identical to what's been sprouted at Fleet Forums by bonus-driven managers. I've even heard CX cabin crew on the jump seats bemoan better treatment of KA pilots which is nothing short of obscure and repeat of divisive management rhetoric.
Apples and oranges by comparison. And it changes. For instance, there's a deliberate drive now to get as many senior KA pilots onto a part time scheme as opposed to unpaid leave and redundancies. If half of KA B scale pushed toward part time with slashed benefits, how again do you compare contracts? Well, an annual tax return may be a start.
Enjoy your time off though I'd be hopeful you get a 13 month.
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Sometimes a person needs to know when to admit he got it wrong. That is the case with my original comments. Although my sentiment regarding the 13th month is valid, using the comparison to the KA pilots was ill-considered. To be clear, I admire the fortitude of their pilots who I know fought hard for their contract gains, something the CX pilots have been woeful at. I didn't mean to draw any inference regarding their overall contract conditions. It's up to the CX pilots to fight for their own conditions. If management withhold the 13th month from us again, well, I know what I am going to do. Up to my colleagues what action they do or do not take in defence of their expectations. Ultimately, we need to show the same resolve towards our management that the KA pilots exhibited. If we don't fight, we'll get nothing, and nothing is what we deserve if we don't fight.
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