CX SFO (main thread)
I’d rate US ATC services as similar to many 3rd world country ATC services. Their use of non-standard RT, lack of empathy with non-english speaking airline crew, ridiculously fast speaking and unnecessary visual approaches for long haul airliners causes unnecessary extra RT, go-arounds and incidents.
You obviously haven’t been to LHR. Now, that airport definitely has the best ATC services in the world. And guess what, it’s limited on real estate, maxed out capacity wise and doesn’t need the use of visual approaches to achieve that capacity.
You obviously haven’t been to LHR. Now, that airport definitely has the best ATC services in the world. And guess what, it’s limited on real estate, maxed out capacity wise and doesn’t need the use of visual approaches to achieve that capacity.
I operate A320s for scheduled pax service from KLAS. A lot into DEN, LAX, DTW, ORD and ATL. All of those airports have more aircraft movements than LHR (and, as an ex Eurocontrol trainee: on the radar every aircraft is the same size, so pax count doesn't matter). If you don't see the runway or the preceding traffic: don't accept the visual. If you see the runway and the preceding traffic and don't accept the visual: find a different career. I flew in the EU for 7 years, now in the US for 15, if you can't fly, you can't fly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...raft_movements
I operate A320s for scheduled pax service from KLAS. A lot into DEN, LAX, DTW, ORD and ATL. All of those airports have more aircraft movements than LHR (and, as an ex Eurocontrol trainee: on the radar every aircraft is the same size, so pax count doesn't matter). If you don't see the runway or the preceding traffic: don't accept the visual. If you see the runway and the preceding traffic and don't accept the visual: find a different career. I flew in the EU for 7 years, now in the US for 15, if you can't fly, you can't fly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...raft_movements
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...raft_movements
Well Hans, I take on board the previous points about accepting visual separation and the wrong heading, and basically I agree. However, I venture that you are a lot more hands-on current by flying your A320 than the majority of long haul line crew. Please consider that many Captains do one takeoff and landing every 35 days and FO less so. I would change your final words to 'if you can't fly much, you can't fly much. I've been operating 4 CX types into SFO for more than 3 decades. As skills have deteriorated, I have consequently briefed to never accept accept the visual separation [you just can't follow, for example an A320 , in a B744 bugged up for 160kts Vapp ] and always brief the expected headings, altitudes, intercept and speeds which rarely vary. Finally, please don't forget you have a responsibility to safely manage ATC as well...
What they do at SFO you will not find in any FCOM as being a visual approach. It is an ILS approach with the traffic separation handed back to the crew.
LHR and DXB are the busiest 2 runway airports in the world, and they can achieve all their movements without the use of visual approach’s. Those airports also have a higher seat count per movement which is an indicator of the wake separation required.
Comments like that make you sound like a complete tosser. It is possible that the crew got a false deviation of the loc by an aircraft crossing the runway.
What they do at SFO you will not find in any FCOM as being a visual approach. It is an ILS approach with the traffic separation handed back to the crew.
LHR and DXB are the busiest 2 runway airports in the world, and they can achieve all their movements without the use of visual approach’s. Those airports also have a higher seat count per movement which is an indicator of the wake separation required.
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None of the public domain data provides those details, you are just making assumptions. Much like the public domain data does not provide the ATC actions, or the actions (or lack thereof) of other aircraft around at the time.
How do you know what the crew actions were ?
None of the public domain data provides those details, you are just making assumptions. Much like the public domain data does not provide the ATC actions, or the actions (or lack thereof) of other aircraft around at the time.
None of the public domain data provides those details, you are just making assumptions. Much like the public domain data does not provide the ATC actions, or the actions (or lack thereof) of other aircraft around at the time.
What is the most disappointing and dangerous aspect of this is the inability of some on this thread to acknowledge there was a mistake at all, and hence not to learn from it. I am not sure these are the people I want up front when I fly.
Comments like that make you sound like a complete tosser. It is possible that the crew got a false deviation of the loc by an aircraft crossing the runway.
What they do at SFO you will not find in any FCOM as being a visual approach. It is an ILS approach with the traffic separation handed back to the crew.
LHR and DXB are the busiest 2 runway airports in the world, and they can achieve all their movements without the use of visual approach’s. Those airports also have a higher seat count per movement which is an indicator of the wake separation required.
Love tossing just as much as the next guy. LHR isn't even in the top 10 by movements.
Last edited by hans brinker; 21st Oct 2019 at 05:49.
Well Hans, I take on board the previous points about accepting visual separation and the wrong heading, and basically I agree. However, I venture that you are a lot more hands-on current by flying your A320 than the majority of long haul line crew. Please consider that many Captains do one takeoff and landing every 35 days and FO less so. I would change your final words to 'if you can't fly much, you can't fly much. I've been operating 4 CX types into SFO for more than 3 decades. As skills have deteriorated, I have consequently briefed to never accept accept the visual separation [you just can't follow, for example an A320 , in a B744 bugged up for 160kts Vapp ] and always brief the expected headings, altitudes, intercept and speeds which rarely vary. Finally, please don't forget you have a responsibility to safely manage ATC as well...
I have been looking at my reply, before I press submit,for the past half hour seeing if I can make it less offensive but not sure if I can, so sorry...
Last edited by hans brinker; 21st Oct 2019 at 05:57.
ATL has around 180,000 movements per runway, LHR 33% higher at 240,000. The seats per movement in LHR is also significantly higher, which means greater approach separation is required.
