Freighter S/O

[Sam Ting Wong]

Dog,

so you think an "O" is not an off day? Seriously? So a day off work doesn't count because in theory the company could have used you? I would never count reserve, but not to count an O day is ridiculous.

I flew maybe 600 hours last 12 months and yes, for sure, 14 days off on average PLUS leave ( including "O" days). I can't even remember when I had a 10 day trip, maybe once a year? I also did not claim you don't get sometimes a 10 day trip. I said on average I have 14 days off.

I am HKG based, so maybe overseas-based guys fly more? If you don't believe me, go to the hub, master roster and count the days. I invite everybody else to do the same. I just checked the first five ( excluding the management pilot) and I count an average 17 days in August. It is there for you to check, black on white.

I do believe the 747 is getting the most consecutive days off, but to be honest I did not evaluate that in depth. I believe it is the case, but I don't care much about other fleets. If indeed others get even more, fine, good on them, and I give you that point.


At the moment means at the moment. As we speak, 747 SO's get ALL transferred to other fleets. I did not say this was the case in the past, I just didn't.

I also make it very clear that I have no clue whatsoever about the future in that regard.

PS What do you think does the O in O day stand for?

PSS You don't have to share my opinion, but don't accuse me of giving false information. That job is been taken.

[cxorcist]

An O day is CX’s replacement for junior manning, since CX isn’t actually a seniority airline. They want to be able to grab anyone, not just the most junior. Is it a day off? Mostly, yes. Would I make plans? No!!!

[Dilbert68]

Sam Ting Wong,

You Sir, are a complete moron.
An O day is not a day off, my O days are regularly converted to duties. You cannot plan anything on an O day because it is a form of reserve. Call 8929 and you O day is now changed to work. I have never heard of another airline that operates this way an neither has Jeppesen, their software had no idea how to cope.
Only a management apologist idiot like you would consider an O day a day off.

Go back into your hole.

[cxorcist]

Originally Posted by Dilbert68

Sam Ting Wong,

You Sir, are a complete moron.
An O day is not a day off, my O days are regularly converted to duties. You cannot plan anything on an O day because it is a form of reserve. Call 8929 and you O day is now changed to work. I have never heard of another airline that operates this way an neither has Jeppesen, their software had no idea how to cope.
Only a management apologist idiot like you would consider an O day a day off.

Go back into your hole.

Dilbert is correct. O days are an industry nonstandard. They are free reserve and should not exist. Pilots should have duties, days off, or reserve. Reserve should never be touching a duty. It’s a stand alone. That there is no credit associated with reserve is another industry nonstandard. All of these and many more (industry nonstandards) are what drives the sickness rates at CX so high. To argue otherwise is foolhardy and wishful thinking by the Company. CX has always considered itself somehow special and different when it comes to employing pilots. Well, that is certainly true, but not in a good way as used to be the case.

[CXDOG]

STW. So when you see coming up on your roster
G
X
X
X
O
X
X
G

Do you see 3 days of work, a day off and 2 more days of work? I see 6 continuous days where my roster may or may not resemble what’s planned. Would you plan to do anything special on the middle O day?

PS. I read the O in O day as Optional. As in it’s the company’s option to use us or not

PPS. “I do believe the 747 is getting the most consecutive days off”. So you’re making a comparison judgement without actually comparing. Interesting methodology.

[Sam Ting Wong]

An O day is an OFF day if I actually did not work on that day. If I had a delay or a roster change and I worked on that day it was not an OFF day. If you want to plan ahead go and work for a LCC on 5/3 roster. Enjoy. Plus 90% of my O days will remain O days. Don't bs me. I am on the 747, I know the truth.

On average I have 14 days OFF plus leave.

That is a fact.

You guys have any idea how hard EK roster are? Or any LCC ? Chinese contracts?

Not ONE of our cargo competitors pilots earn more or works less. Not one. We ( B /Arapa) are worldwide the best paid and treated cargo pilots. Don't you see that?? Do you have ANY idea how a roster and a paycheck looks like at Air Bridge Cargo, Atlas, Qatar, Korean or Kalita? Air Hong Kong? Any idea what kind of FTL's they have, sick leave policy, staff travel options? These are our direct competitors, not FedEx or UPS. These are the companies we have to beat, these are the companies we need to be better at all what we do.

You are completely ignoring the world out there.
Completely.

The problem with you guys is always the same, be it roster, pay, all our terms and conditions.

You don't appreciate what you have, you will never be satisfied. Ever.

You will always cherry pick, always believe you been cheated and others have what you deserve.

You believe this is like a Turkish Bazar. Just ask for as much as possible and always pretend you been robbed. Well, think again. At some point the other side will just walk away.

Which is exactly what has happened.

Only in Cathay you have guys on 300k USD after tax whinging about staff travel cost.

The problem with that attitude is that the company knows by now it doesn't matter what they offer. It will never be enough for you guys.

Because of people like you, they will now completely ignore what we say, not only mostly as they used to.

Plus, thanks to you, they now know how innocuous CC or a TB really are.

With that kind of attitude you destroyed the union. You guys fantasise about people leaving CX, but what we will really see is people leaving the union.

You are making us a laughing stock ( ice pirates anyone? the "forgotten fleet"?)

Ridiculous.

PS I will now enjoy my leave. With attached 5 joker days. Go on and keep making up stories to each other. No further comments from me.

[787dash9]

As someone who has left CX around half a year ago-

All the info you read on here is correct. I couldn’t be happier with my choice to leave, rosters are better (no O days, which are NOT days off btw- you can and will get called for them and if you report sick you either have to include them for the period you call sick for, or you WILL get used for them), don’t do red eyes, colleagues who are happy, company who takes good care of us and conditions that actually get better rather than worse.

And no, it’s not that CX pilots are always complaining no matter what, it truly is a frustrating and demoralising company to be in.

Do yourself a favour, look for other options or know what your getting yourself into. And if you’re presently at CX thinking of leaving, do it- I wish I had done it sooner.

[Toruk Macto]

A day off means I can plan rest , plan to pick up the kids and plan to catch up with wife or friends . Can’t plan any of that with an O day . It may turn into a day off .

[Farman Biplane]

STW, you do realise that you are not employed as a “solely “ freighter/cargo pilot? Comparison with the other cargo carriers is invalid. You are actually enjoying pax rates to fly the 747 freighter, as we no longer have the pax version. Likewise that is why your contract doesn’t change when you transfer to the Airbus/777 fleets.

An Operational day is not a day off on your published roster as you cannot Guarantee the day off and hence plan to be somewhere or do something you desire. Should you not be abused on your O day then yes, you can treat it as a day off in retrospect, but what use is that if you couldn’t Guarantee its use?

[Air Profit]

STW. Why don't you change your moniker to STFU. Seriously. Company apologist of the worst kind.

[MENELAUS]

Why is it when someone offers a contrarian view, then he’s management ? He’s far from a company apologist. He just happens to speak the truth. Look, flying the freighter is ****e, on so many levels. You do, however, get more days off, admittedly at the expense of hdp and therefore provident fund. And that is the major rub. What makes the freighter particularly **** vs the pax fleets is getting d@cked around in general, and therefore the instability of the whole roster. 2 to 3 hour turnarounds don’t help either. And a complete lack of choice wrt destination requests ( save GDL) is another causus belli. Does getting dicked around happen that often; in truth, no. Enough to be a pain in the arse..yes, but nowhere near as often as guys claim.

And comments like the above
“

Farman Biplane

Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
Posts: 294
STW, you do realise that you are not employed as a “solely “ freighter/cargo pilot? Comparison with the other cargo carriers is invalid. You are actually enjoying pax rates to fly the 747 freighter, as we no longer have the pax version. “

just go to show how out of touch some people are. The reality is that if you are not on the alleged forgotten fleet then no one gives a ****. And I now fly with individuals who don’t even know what the freighter does. Or even that the 747 was once the longhaul mainstay of the company.

[Piet Lood]

STW wrote: "Not ONE of our cargo competitors pilots earn more or works less. Not one. We ( B /Arapa) are worldwide the best paid and treated cargo pilots. Don't you see that?? Do you have ANY idea how a roster and a paycheck looks like at Air Bridge Cargo, Atlas, Qatar, Korean or Kalita? Air Hong Kong? Any idea what kind of FTL's they have, sick leave policy, staff travel options? These are our direct competitors, not FedEx or UPS. These are the companies we have to beat, these are the companies we need to be better at all what we do."


Apples and oranges.
A friend of mine is in Hong Kong Airlines and wanted to get into cx. He decided not to because of the paycut under the current offered COS.(Not B scale mind you).
Also you will find that some of the airlines that you mentioned, the financial compensation is actually better AFTER taxes, cost of living, housing allowance and considering 100% schooling allowance until 21 years of age.
Don't even mention the quality and availability of staff travel benefits.
Sure, you don't get to live in the "safe" and "clean" city of Hong Kong, but each to his/her own.
Sick leave policy??? Hahaha, don't make me laugh. Fear and intimidation policy you mean!
How much of your 300k USD is going to the tax man and the bank/your landlord?
If you were lucky/smart/"stupid" enough to buy a property, better be selling fast. The market will be "slightly" worse if the riots continue.

[cxorcist]

The freighter can be perfectly enjoyable assuming you fly on body clock and/or with augmented crew and get good rest in the hotels. The problem is that there are many 2 sector, 2 man WOCL duties, lots of delays affecting rest plans, and daytime sleep in hotels can be quite elusive, especially when the hotel staff has no idea that you aren’t checking out by 10am like everyone else.

As for competing with FedEx/UPS, those two definitely are relevant. Many of our pilots can and have left for those two airlines. Whether they fly overnight packages or general cargo is totally irrelevant. Who fed you that line of BS, STW? You really are dumb if you believe that.

UPS flies many 747Fs, just like CX and puts quite a bit of cargo on our aircraft. They have also sold out the 747-8 line for the next several years. They are definitely coming after CX.

[Air Profit]

And both Fedex and UPS seem perfectly capable of providing their pilots with stable, high day off per month rosters. Only our myopic, insular and incompetent management seem incapable of understanding the obvious. The methods are ably demonstrated by our competitors, and that is why this airline is ultimately doomed to become a sad footnote in aviation history. You can't run a premium airline with substandard crew pay and conditions, low morale and high turnover. Many of our colleagues have concluded the same, and are now enjoying fruitful careers elsewhere.

[Slasher1]

OK...........Fine......

You try and help a brother pilot out by explaining what has been happening over the past decade(s), what is happening now, why it’s happening and you get STW and the like (IMHO someone doing damage control—either a company apologist or a Stockholm Syndrome pilot) manipulating facts to make things sound better than they are. Rationalizing to themselves. Making things up about O days that aren’t true, etc. Kind of like the company manipulating people, groups, and contracts. Not going to get into the weeds about it; POS 18 is (IMHO) a horrible contract; a pay for work deal which is wholly company centric and lacks all of the pay for work protections that a REAL airline pay for work contract has (no pay protection, duty rigs, trip rigs, decent minimum guarantee, real bidding and control over ones’ roster, real trip trading ability with pay protection, etc). One way street where they call and pay you if they need you but otherwise you’re stuffed. Have a look at it compared to a real CA/EA or CBA from a US major. Have a look at how many majors allow for the multitude of divisive contracts, differing conditions, and side deals that exist here (further dividing the work force against itself). Have a look at the effects of divisive conditions and a factionalized work force. Have a look at what you really NEED to live at a decent standard in HKG. And draw your own conclusions.

I think each DFO — when taking the reigns — gets one free ‘crazy idea’ card. Something which has the potential to have short term company gain (while ignoring long term company health and quality of product)—but is so absurd that the pilot body couldn’t possibly accept it without walking out. A kind of way out there “can I get away with this” thing to measure resistance as a barometer. In recent history some examples of this might be Dickie’s B-minus/C scale transition, Anna’s Continuous Reserve/rolling roster collapse scheduling system, and the present one is POS 18.

And there to me IS a culpability to those (regardless of circumstance) who roll in and blindly accept these deteriorating conditions. While YOU might simply be passing through using this as a stepping stone, there remain a large quantity of pilots that have been here (acquiring seniority) that now have to deal with the destruction that you, by your selfishness, have left in the wake. And if you would decide to stay by your naive outlook have cut your and your mates throats downline. Contrary to what STW might say this does NOT happen at major successful airlines elsewhere (who might view people as a longer term investment). Granted most of these have bargaining units which would not allow such a divisive contract structure to exist in the first place and realize the great destruction of workforce division (strangely enough both from a management and union perspective). Successful organizations take a team and incentive approach — realizing that the incentives created by someone feeling they are part of something larger than themselves and a strong sense of cohesion to the team is one of the most powerful motivating forces in the universe.

My contract ain’t gonna change until I pull the pin and I’m in a position to do so really at any time (which is a good position to be in and I’d suggest folks get there somehow as soon as possible). The places I routinely live are (IMHO) nicer than the Chief Executives’ in HKG (meaning that you probably HAVE to commute for a decent lifestyle; something the new contract will not support—what you need to make depends entirely on where you live). When you’re an old guy that can do that this deal can actually be fun if you’re proactive in making it so. Most all of my friends who have decades in front of them with airline flying as a career have left (and I really miss them—which was one of the major reasons for being here in the first place).

Has it been a mistake ? Depends on in what sprit you ask the question. If it’s in regard to a life experience, then no—things happen in life and you learn and grow from them while enjoying the ride. Which I’ve done. Made a lot of friends and experienced some pretty cool things with many blessings in life at this point. Learned a lot about others and myself while enjoying the ride. Things in life happen for a reason and you really want to embrace it. But I joined quite a bit ago and things have accelerated downward over the past 4 or 5 years. If the intent was to have a fulfilling airline career and being a part of something great in aviation then most definitely it was a mistake. All of the great things have involved some wonderful people and great friends (and a few cool places and experiences) and not the job itself. If I was looking for a fulfilling career and knew then what I know now (or had someone helpful on the internet who actually worked there providing advice), I would have made a much different decision. Perhaps my fault; perhaps because information flowed more slowly then (and it really was a different place but perhaps there were warning signs I ignored). Perhaps at the time I was one of those Pollyannas that seem to pervade this forum (albeit on better conditions). And have learned something.

AND things have gone downhill since then; at least toward new joiner conditions and future outlook.

Yes, there IS a definite pilot shortage (even in the US) and market conditions will never be better. Even some US majors are short staffed (witness the record travel numbers and cancellations when anything happens because even they have difficulty shuffling crews; and they are better staffed than here). Seniority is everything in the airline business. You have veterans of decade(s) of experience here deciding to dump the precious seniority they have for greener pastures (and endure much lower conditions for a couple of years while they climb the ladder again—but with a futures outlook much brighter in every way). And a happier life (which is probably the most important thing). Draw your own conclusions.

It’s a big, bright world out there and ones’ most valuable asset in life is time. If one wastes it one will certainly look back with regret. So make good choices; ones which embrace a bright future. Not one driven out of fear or that this is ‘the best you can do.’ Abandon poor choices quickly so that you don’t get suckered into a quagmire and self-made rut.

I can save no one from themselves nor can (or should) I try to help someone who has powerful rationalization skills. Some people gotta do a face plant on the concrete to figure out it hurts and you should avoid doing face plants on the concrete to begin with (and ignoring the advice of those who’ve tripped and done a few face plants themselves). Y’all have at it and good luck.

[SaulGoodman]

Slasher1. I do not work for CX but I once thought about it and decided not to. But to blame the new guys is the easiest thing to do and completely irrelevant. They just choose what is best for them at the moment. The pilots who are already in the company are the only ones who can fight for a descent CWA. If anything, blame yourself

[Slasher1]

Originally Posted by SaulGoodman

Slasher1. I do not work for CX but I once thought about it and decided not to. But to blame the new guys is the easiest thing to do and completely irrelevant. They just choose what is best for them at the moment. The pilots who are already in the company are the only ones who can fight for a descent CWA. If anything, blame yourself

Sorry if I made myself less clear than I should have. Intended as more of a caution/warning than anything else.

I agree in part but also disagree in part. There’s plenty of blame to go around and not one cause but several. Part of it is differing factions within the workforce who allow themselves to be played off against each other—to their own future detriment. Part of it is lack of resolve and ability to take on risk to stop the decline. Some of it is pussies and scabs, part of it is apathy.

Part of it it is physically separated bargaining units with different agendas.

And part of it is new joiners, individual deal makers, and extenders who do so on inferior contracts undermining everyone else.

It is what it is.

Take care.

[Apple Tree Yard]

And all of the above listed points are EXACTLY why there will never again be a stable career available at CX. It's an airline of inexperienced, naive mercenaries, constantly undermining themselves and being undermined by constant hiring of previously ineligible individuals to replace the high resignation rate of the currently employed. Nothing but an overworked and broken training system desperately trying to keep up with attrition. Tell me that is a recipe for a settled, lucrative and rewarding career? If you aren't making plans to escape this madhouse, you need your pulse checked.

[Kitsune]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/w...sery-37q88rp7v

[787dash9]

Originally Posted by CU-APA

I have a big question here that I cant manage to understand... there is "high resignation rate of the currently employed" but its takes 7 years to go from SO to FO... and no chances to become captain... which part is resigning?

CU-APA, afaik pilots of all ranks are resigning, the delay in upgrading comes from CX hiring DEFO bypassing current SOs and the slow but steady transitioning from 1SO on longhauls to 2SO, increasing the need for SOs in the company, but reducing the need for FOs. Another factor is that the training resources are exhausted with the DEFO and also training captains to be trainers.

The reason above, the toxic culture, constant lies about upgrades and a lot of other things and living cost/ qualify are, just to name a few, some of the reasons why myself and a lot of other SOs resigned.

Lots of other, much better options out there at the moment.