Sexual Equality
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Sexual Equality
Yesterday, I made the mistake of reading the weekly update from the CEO. (Is he even called the CEO? I don’t know maybe it’s something different now with TTW).
Then I doubled down on my original mistake to click on a link that took me to the “Male Ally” declaration page.
Third mistake was I actually read the male ally declaration
Fourth and final mistake was I actually must have given a sh*t because rather than ignoring what I read and deleting it, I actually gave it a bit of thought. And my blood boiled. How dare they?
Let me just say I don’t care what “label” of person I fly with. Male, female, gay, straight, black, white, brown, whatever. Number 1 item is if they can fly the aircraft. If we happen to get on and have some good conversation and a laugh then all the better. If there isn’t much to talk about then fine. But sex and colour and sexual orientation doesn’t come into it for me. Of course sometimes people don’t get on but that’s just human.
To not really care what “label” of person you fly with surely must be the goal of the whole sexual equality drive. But I think for most of us that’s how we already feel.
Being asked to sign this declaration feels like being found guilty of a crime that never has been, and never will be committed. What’s the difference between signing this, and signing a declaration that I will not take a shotgun into a bank and rob it? Or I will not do 160mph on the way to work? Why single out sexual discrimination? Where does the list of what I would not do end?
Let’s face it - we work for one of the most deceitful and untrustworthy airlines ever. I would never sign the “male ally” document for these people - but for argument’s sake let’s just say I did.
Then let’s say in a couple of year’s time a female first officer doesn’t like me because she took objection to me telling her that she entered the incorrect take off data or something. She is concerned about this going on her record so she says that I sexually harassed her. (this is just to make an argument - please don't say I'm a wank*r for reporting her - I never would).
I would be called into the office, and I would imagine my signed declaration that I signed way back in 2019 would be displayed before me and management would say that I had pledged that I would never sexually harass my colleagues bla lba bla. My dismissal would be immediate with very little investigation from those who fired me, and a newspaper report in the SCMP would follow, showing my previous employer in a glowing light in how they have zero tolerance for sexual discrimination.
I feel the pendulum has swung too far.
So I would like to ask both the DPA and the AOA to take the company to task on this document they sent through to us. What are they implying about the male pilots that work for them? Let’s make them be a TRUE equal opportunities employer before they demand their male employees to sign their document.
I can’t speak for CX, but in KA I think in their first 25 years of operation, they had employed a total of three or four female pilots. Then all of a sudden they started their cadet recruitment drive and the number of female pilots increased. Which is great. But they have now somehow twisted their misogynistic hierarchal past into now becoming an equal opportunity employer - probably because they realised how bad they actually were. And now they want all male pilots to sign a male ally declaration.
So I have some questions here for the unions to ask the company, and I would like you all to add to them if you feel this is a just cause.
1.When my children were born, I was not allowed any paternity leave, but if I was a female pilot then I would be given leave. Why is this? Does the company think that mothers are more important than fathers? Isn’t that sexually discrimination? Just because I was born a male you think I deserve less time bonding with my children than if I was a female?
2. I believe the maternity leave has recently been updated with increased leave. But still the days off for fathers is less than for mothers. Why is this? Nothing to do with sexual equality right?
3. Recently the company took a lot of time and energy to highlight how they are implementing procedures to increase the number of female pilots into the airline because they are much lower proportion than male pilots. This happened to coincide with international woman’s day. They also had two KA flights operated, with much fanfare, by an all female crew (flight + cabin crew).
We all know that male cabin crew are a much lower proportion than female cabin crew. It is probable that the ratio is close to an inverse proportion of the flight crew statistic. So why has there been no mention of the drive to increase the number of male cabin crew in the airline on international men’s day (if there actually is one)? Why has there been no mention of how proud the airline is of their male cabin crew colleagues? Why has there not been an all male crew (flight crew + cabin crew) on international men’s day (if there is one)? Why is the airline more proud of their female employees than their male employees? Isn't this sexual discrimination?
4.We all know that the vast majority of check in staff are female. Why is this? Is there some particular skill that makes females more skilful for this job than males? Can’t males do the job just as well? Has there been a drive to increase the number of male check-in staff? Have the female check in staff been asked to sign a “FEMALE ALLY” declaration to their male colleagues? Why have the male pilots been singled out in signing this form?
5. Most of the cleaners in the aircraft are female. Does the airline have a policy for their wholly owned subsidiaries for equal employment or just it just apply to male pilots? I
6. In your declaration statement that you asked us to sign, it says “If I am a position of authority then I will aim for recruitment of equal numbers of men and women”.
Surely this statement should read “equal proportion of men and women”.
For example, let’s imagine if two pilot positions exist, and one women and 10 men apply. Now let’s imagine the woman barely scraped through school, but all 10 men are rocket scientists, and also pass all other induction tests with flying colours.You would expect that in an equal environment, the two top men would get the job as their sex would not have anything to do with the outcome of the interview. But by applying the statement “If I am a position of authority then I will aim for recruitment of equal numbers of men and women”, then it would follow than the woman and one man would get the job. Surely this is sexual discrimination.
7. Why are all the management at CX nearly all middle aged white males who have been educated in very similar institutions? Have the senior management given any thought to equal sexual and gender employment opportunities in their own ranks which might lead to a broader and more well thought out strategy? How about looking in the mirror at themselves before taking us to task?
8. Is there an international man's day?
If you are a female pilot, please can you give support to this post.
I am a male captain. The sex of the pilot I fly with does not concern me. What more do you want?
I suggest this airline concentrates on encouraging woman and men to apply for the positions they would like within the airline and employs them on merit with no regard to their sex.
But first they should concentrate on actually running the airline.
Then I doubled down on my original mistake to click on a link that took me to the “Male Ally” declaration page.
Third mistake was I actually read the male ally declaration
Fourth and final mistake was I actually must have given a sh*t because rather than ignoring what I read and deleting it, I actually gave it a bit of thought. And my blood boiled. How dare they?
Let me just say I don’t care what “label” of person I fly with. Male, female, gay, straight, black, white, brown, whatever. Number 1 item is if they can fly the aircraft. If we happen to get on and have some good conversation and a laugh then all the better. If there isn’t much to talk about then fine. But sex and colour and sexual orientation doesn’t come into it for me. Of course sometimes people don’t get on but that’s just human.
To not really care what “label” of person you fly with surely must be the goal of the whole sexual equality drive. But I think for most of us that’s how we already feel.
Being asked to sign this declaration feels like being found guilty of a crime that never has been, and never will be committed. What’s the difference between signing this, and signing a declaration that I will not take a shotgun into a bank and rob it? Or I will not do 160mph on the way to work? Why single out sexual discrimination? Where does the list of what I would not do end?
Let’s face it - we work for one of the most deceitful and untrustworthy airlines ever. I would never sign the “male ally” document for these people - but for argument’s sake let’s just say I did.
Then let’s say in a couple of year’s time a female first officer doesn’t like me because she took objection to me telling her that she entered the incorrect take off data or something. She is concerned about this going on her record so she says that I sexually harassed her. (this is just to make an argument - please don't say I'm a wank*r for reporting her - I never would).
I would be called into the office, and I would imagine my signed declaration that I signed way back in 2019 would be displayed before me and management would say that I had pledged that I would never sexually harass my colleagues bla lba bla. My dismissal would be immediate with very little investigation from those who fired me, and a newspaper report in the SCMP would follow, showing my previous employer in a glowing light in how they have zero tolerance for sexual discrimination.
I feel the pendulum has swung too far.
So I would like to ask both the DPA and the AOA to take the company to task on this document they sent through to us. What are they implying about the male pilots that work for them? Let’s make them be a TRUE equal opportunities employer before they demand their male employees to sign their document.
I can’t speak for CX, but in KA I think in their first 25 years of operation, they had employed a total of three or four female pilots. Then all of a sudden they started their cadet recruitment drive and the number of female pilots increased. Which is great. But they have now somehow twisted their misogynistic hierarchal past into now becoming an equal opportunity employer - probably because they realised how bad they actually were. And now they want all male pilots to sign a male ally declaration.
So I have some questions here for the unions to ask the company, and I would like you all to add to them if you feel this is a just cause.
1.When my children were born, I was not allowed any paternity leave, but if I was a female pilot then I would be given leave. Why is this? Does the company think that mothers are more important than fathers? Isn’t that sexually discrimination? Just because I was born a male you think I deserve less time bonding with my children than if I was a female?
2. I believe the maternity leave has recently been updated with increased leave. But still the days off for fathers is less than for mothers. Why is this? Nothing to do with sexual equality right?
3. Recently the company took a lot of time and energy to highlight how they are implementing procedures to increase the number of female pilots into the airline because they are much lower proportion than male pilots. This happened to coincide with international woman’s day. They also had two KA flights operated, with much fanfare, by an all female crew (flight + cabin crew).
We all know that male cabin crew are a much lower proportion than female cabin crew. It is probable that the ratio is close to an inverse proportion of the flight crew statistic. So why has there been no mention of the drive to increase the number of male cabin crew in the airline on international men’s day (if there actually is one)? Why has there been no mention of how proud the airline is of their male cabin crew colleagues? Why has there not been an all male crew (flight crew + cabin crew) on international men’s day (if there is one)? Why is the airline more proud of their female employees than their male employees? Isn't this sexual discrimination?
4.We all know that the vast majority of check in staff are female. Why is this? Is there some particular skill that makes females more skilful for this job than males? Can’t males do the job just as well? Has there been a drive to increase the number of male check-in staff? Have the female check in staff been asked to sign a “FEMALE ALLY” declaration to their male colleagues? Why have the male pilots been singled out in signing this form?
5. Most of the cleaners in the aircraft are female. Does the airline have a policy for their wholly owned subsidiaries for equal employment or just it just apply to male pilots? I
6. In your declaration statement that you asked us to sign, it says “If I am a position of authority then I will aim for recruitment of equal numbers of men and women”.
Surely this statement should read “equal proportion of men and women”.
For example, let’s imagine if two pilot positions exist, and one women and 10 men apply. Now let’s imagine the woman barely scraped through school, but all 10 men are rocket scientists, and also pass all other induction tests with flying colours.You would expect that in an equal environment, the two top men would get the job as their sex would not have anything to do with the outcome of the interview. But by applying the statement “If I am a position of authority then I will aim for recruitment of equal numbers of men and women”, then it would follow than the woman and one man would get the job. Surely this is sexual discrimination.
7. Why are all the management at CX nearly all middle aged white males who have been educated in very similar institutions? Have the senior management given any thought to equal sexual and gender employment opportunities in their own ranks which might lead to a broader and more well thought out strategy? How about looking in the mirror at themselves before taking us to task?
8. Is there an international man's day?
If you are a female pilot, please can you give support to this post.
I am a male captain. The sex of the pilot I fly with does not concern me. What more do you want?
I suggest this airline concentrates on encouraging woman and men to apply for the positions they would like within the airline and employs them on merit with no regard to their sex.
But first they should concentrate on actually running the airline.
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Forgot to add.....
Why are female cabin crew required to wear makeup but male cabin crew are not?
Why do female and male cabin crew not wear the same uniforms like the pilots do?
We all know the underlying reason. People in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones.
Why do female and male cabin crew not wear the same uniforms like the pilots do?
We all know the underlying reason. People in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones.
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Couldn't agree more, especially with point 6. The reason why it's a male dominated industry is because the vast majority of young people who decide to become pilots are men. There is no systematic oppression of women that is preventing them from becoming pilots. On the contrary, in my experience over the years women have a far greater chance of employment out of flying school due to this issue.
This is all being driven by a biology denying radical feminist movement spreading in the west like a cancer, which sadly seems to be spreading to this part of the world too.
Needless to say I did not sign the declaration!
This is all being driven by a biology denying radical feminist movement spreading in the west like a cancer, which sadly seems to be spreading to this part of the world too.
Needless to say I did not sign the declaration!
Last edited by YellowFever777; 17th Mar 2019 at 01:05.
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Of course all the original post is correct. I very much like the parallel drawn with cabin crew. Usually the flight goes more smoothly if the cabin crew are male. I’d like to be in the cockpit of the flight crewed entirely by men!
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Fixing discrimination by positively discriminating as is now done in the Western hemisphere is self defeating. How do you 'fix' something purportedly broken by doing more of it?
Of course some industries 'they' aren't interested in equalising, rather selective in where equality is sought. Perhaps being conscripted and fighting as infantry is a good thing.
The war of the sexes is the ultimate and last act of distraction to mask a declining economic and social model.
Little Napoleon (Qantas CEO Joyce) exclaimed he wanted 50% female pilots. Unfortunately the facts of the general population mean it is impossible: There are not 50% women pilots.
Whilst HR has control of recruitment it is expected that 'quotas' will, unofficially of course see the percentage as high as can be. Not based on merit but gender.
In many years in industry have yet to see a contract headed MALE or FEMALE, that stipulates different rates of remuneration.
Men ought have the career break opportunities afforded women, but sadly men either work or not. Men ought be able to take as much family leave as they like, at least equal to the other gender.
Men ought be given custody and control of their offspring in 50% of cases.
With respect to the gender pay gap, there is a small gender pay gap, based primarily on the choices people make in the vocation. It just so happens that most of the gap is due to the areas in which people work. Women make different choices, not because of exclusion but because they themselves do so.
Of course some industries 'they' aren't interested in equalising, rather selective in where equality is sought. Perhaps being conscripted and fighting as infantry is a good thing.
The war of the sexes is the ultimate and last act of distraction to mask a declining economic and social model.
Little Napoleon (Qantas CEO Joyce) exclaimed he wanted 50% female pilots. Unfortunately the facts of the general population mean it is impossible: There are not 50% women pilots.
Whilst HR has control of recruitment it is expected that 'quotas' will, unofficially of course see the percentage as high as can be. Not based on merit but gender.
In many years in industry have yet to see a contract headed MALE or FEMALE, that stipulates different rates of remuneration.
Men ought have the career break opportunities afforded women, but sadly men either work or not. Men ought be able to take as much family leave as they like, at least equal to the other gender.
Men ought be given custody and control of their offspring in 50% of cases.
With respect to the gender pay gap, there is a small gender pay gap, based primarily on the choices people make in the vocation. It just so happens that most of the gap is due to the areas in which people work. Women make different choices, not because of exclusion but because they themselves do so.
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In the U.S. , E.U. and United Nations such a document is illegal. CX years behind current thinking and policies. Not surprising really when it is run by a bunch of puss***** Sorry that's sexist.
I'm surprised the letter didn't include a clause promoting "burning of bra's". CX management SOOOOOOOO behind the times it's ridiculous.
I'm surprised the letter didn't include a clause promoting "burning of bra's". CX management SOOOOOOOO behind the times it's ridiculous.
Last edited by unitedabx; 17th Mar 2019 at 05:11.
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I’m with all of the previous posters . I don’t care if I fly with a male or female pilot . All I care about is how well they fly the aircraft . I have flown with female pilots who are better than 90% of their male counterparts , having said that I have flown with a number of others who are barely scraping by . Trying to fill quotas is a recipe for disaster , a much better solution is to employ talent instead ,something that the world seems to have forgotten . But according to the latest sports governing body you can simply decide that you are a woman despite being born a man . So if you want to be sure of getting hired , just decide that you are female for the week , that should do it .
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Womens vs Masons. Resolve that one while you're at it. CX FOP management riddled with Masons. We all know you have to be male to join the masons and you have to be a total "dick" to join FOP management.
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One of my last rostered duties 4 days before my retirement was to attend a "diversity awareness day" run by a Welsh women, living in Japan and making a mint by regurgitating out dated diversity theories (another Pete C idea on how to ingratiate himself with upper management to secure the DFO job in a few years). One of the cornerstones of her presentation was that "diversity" was to be appreciated but under no circumstances singled out or it's recognition made mandatory or written into compliance documents as these moves only serve to allienate groups that could be considered "diverse".
So having spent a small fortune on these "diversity days" the management has now ignored the very essence of the theory and decided to put the spotlight on one particular group in CX. Women.
What next ?Pilots with blue eyes ?
So having spent a small fortune on these "diversity days" the management has now ignored the very essence of the theory and decided to put the spotlight on one particular group in CX. Women.
What next ?Pilots with blue eyes ?
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Most of us are all for equal opportunity employment. If someone best qualifies for the job, then give them that job. Unfortunately, there is a drive for equal outcome. These are two very different things.
Management are now pushing for equal outcome employment, at the expense of anyone who's actually more qualified for the job.
Management are now pushing for equal outcome employment, at the expense of anyone who's actually more qualified for the job.
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And another couple of things.....
Another line from the MALE ALLY document:
".... or criticising a woman for the necessity of undertaking family duties"
This statement highlights the company's hidden prejudice and stereotyping in assuming that family duties are undertaken by women by necessity.
Consider a married couple who are both first officers. They have a baby. They are both coming up for command, but the woman is a better pilot than the man so they decide that the man should stay at home and look after the baby, and the woman should do her command as she has the best chance of passing. It is clearly NOT a necessity for a woman to undertake family duties, but the wording of this statement just shows this company's deep rooted underlying assumptions about a person's sex and their assumed family and work duties.
Once again it is not the male employees at fault here but the underlying sexual bias at this company.
Have these white males that call themselves our management thought through what is going to happen here?
In a drive to equal the number of female pilots they hire (rather than an equal proportion), they will accept any female with a pulse - assuming more men than women apply for the job.
As a result, a majority of these women will not be as good as the men that also were accepted.
These sub par female pilots will create an illusion to their male colleagues, that female pilots in general are not the same standard as their male colleagues. So of course the opposite outcome than the original intent will occur.
These morons need to do: Simply get to the grass roots level (schools & universities) and encourage an equal number of young men and women to apply for pilots jobs. Then hire on merit and the number of men and women recruits should be about even. The pilots will be of equal abilities, and this whole sexual equality thing will not be an issue.
Leave the male employees out of this. Solve your own underlying prejudices first instead of blaming your employees.
One final thought:
In scheduling the all female crews for the recent KA flights that were widely publicised in the company magazine, were other crews rosters moved about unfairly, or their roster requests affected? Because there is no transparency in the request system we will never know.
".... or criticising a woman for the necessity of undertaking family duties"
This statement highlights the company's hidden prejudice and stereotyping in assuming that family duties are undertaken by women by necessity.
Consider a married couple who are both first officers. They have a baby. They are both coming up for command, but the woman is a better pilot than the man so they decide that the man should stay at home and look after the baby, and the woman should do her command as she has the best chance of passing. It is clearly NOT a necessity for a woman to undertake family duties, but the wording of this statement just shows this company's deep rooted underlying assumptions about a person's sex and their assumed family and work duties.
Once again it is not the male employees at fault here but the underlying sexual bias at this company.
Have these white males that call themselves our management thought through what is going to happen here?
In a drive to equal the number of female pilots they hire (rather than an equal proportion), they will accept any female with a pulse - assuming more men than women apply for the job.
As a result, a majority of these women will not be as good as the men that also were accepted.
These sub par female pilots will create an illusion to their male colleagues, that female pilots in general are not the same standard as their male colleagues. So of course the opposite outcome than the original intent will occur.
These morons need to do: Simply get to the grass roots level (schools & universities) and encourage an equal number of young men and women to apply for pilots jobs. Then hire on merit and the number of men and women recruits should be about even. The pilots will be of equal abilities, and this whole sexual equality thing will not be an issue.
Leave the male employees out of this. Solve your own underlying prejudices first instead of blaming your employees.
One final thought:
In scheduling the all female crews for the recent KA flights that were widely publicised in the company magazine, were other crews rosters moved about unfairly, or their roster requests affected? Because there is no transparency in the request system we will never know.
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Somewhere, in a place far far away is a secluded cave up a mountainside where Swine Princess spawn into the devils and morons they are.
What a pathetic lot. I truly believe the only was for Cathay to move forward would be to send these plonkers packing, in the most undignified manner possible.
What a pathetic lot. I truly believe the only was for Cathay to move forward would be to send these plonkers packing, in the most undignified manner possible.
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Get a job.
Comply with your employer.
Pay Union dues.
Get a pay cheque.
Get on with it.
Complain.
Retire.
Die.
What ever happened to living a life of "quiet desperation"? I've done it all my life, so far, and it is just fine, well, sort of...
Comply with your employer.
Pay Union dues.
Get a pay cheque.
Get on with it.
Complain.
Retire.
Die.
What ever happened to living a life of "quiet desperation"? I've done it all my life, so far, and it is just fine, well, sort of...
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I suppose the preferential hiring of women won’t matter much at this point. Neither gender of “Pilot” applicants are especially strong these days. I would argue both are, in most cases, downright unqualified. Maybe FOP should concern themselves a bit more with that reality and its underlying causes than political correctness. Nero fiddles with no clothes on...
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Industries that are male dominated and getting female quotas imposed:
Pilots, doctors, dentistry, police, fire fighters, engineers, mechanics, construction workers, oil/gas/mining, electricians, plumbers, general & executive management, et al.
Industries which are female dominated and... oh, hang on...
Nurses (every type), allied health practitioners, teachers (at every level), laboratory technicians, medical imaging/sonography, human resources/recruitment (across all industries), cabin crew/check-in, medical sales, general retail, marketing, et al.
According to the Hays Salary Guide, 2018 (Australia)... "56% of organisations have a diversity policy for hiring new staff" - (I cannot attach the screenshot of this due to insufficient posts).
So what we can draw from this is... you guessed it... in order for organisations to appear to be all warm and fluffy to their customers and investors, merit based selection criteria are being ignored in 56% of all organisations - but only in those roles/industries which currently employ the largest proportion of majority groups (e.g. middle age, white, straight, male, etc.). so if you identify as all of those, and currently work in a role that is filled primarily with the same, prepared to be discriminated against.
Pilots, doctors, dentistry, police, fire fighters, engineers, mechanics, construction workers, oil/gas/mining, electricians, plumbers, general & executive management, et al.
Industries which are female dominated and... oh, hang on...
Nurses (every type), allied health practitioners, teachers (at every level), laboratory technicians, medical imaging/sonography, human resources/recruitment (across all industries), cabin crew/check-in, medical sales, general retail, marketing, et al.
According to the Hays Salary Guide, 2018 (Australia)... "56% of organisations have a diversity policy for hiring new staff" - (I cannot attach the screenshot of this due to insufficient posts).
So what we can draw from this is... you guessed it... in order for organisations to appear to be all warm and fluffy to their customers and investors, merit based selection criteria are being ignored in 56% of all organisations - but only in those roles/industries which currently employ the largest proportion of majority groups (e.g. middle age, white, straight, male, etc.). so if you identify as all of those, and currently work in a role that is filled primarily with the same, prepared to be discriminated against.
So I would like to ask both the DPA and the AOA to take the company to task on this document they sent through to us. What are they implying about the male pilots that work for them? Let’s make them be a TRUE equal opportunities employer before they demand their male employees to sign their document.
I do wonder cynically, if the push from the corporate dominated male world, to actively seek higher numbers of female pilots in the ranks is because there is science they are more industrially pliable? Otherwise, where's the money in it for them?
I'm a big ally of young females entering aviation and will happily encourage my daughters pursuit of recreational aviation. Though I hope there's no interest in commercial aviation as it's so unhealthy.
A few times a month, I'm the only male crew member on a wide-body aircraft, which is odd in this day and age and I wonder if there's discrimination against Chinese men in the pursuit of their cabin attendant dreams?
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 18th Mar 2019 at 05:56.