Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

Break down cost of living - for wannabes

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Break down cost of living - for wannabes

Old 25th Dec 2018, 17:29
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by carolknows View Post
Wow Andy, you sound like the perfect candidate who drafts the new cos18. Totally justifies it and I applaud you.
I sense you are trying to insult me. If it makes you feel better then I will turn the other cheek.

Let's recap. You started this thread to breakdown cost of living for people on the wannabe forum. The very first item you quoted was 40K for a 1000 square foot 3 bedroom flat. You then followed up with a 3K electricity bill that assumes your AC/heater, dehumidifier, and air purifier is running constantly. You then mention items like helpers and cars.

Then I stated that most people on the wannabe forum are likely single or married without kids. It's probably more likely they are locals, so how nice of you for throwing a jab at them too. Objectively, it makes no sense that their demographic will expense anywhere near your quoted numbers. This isn't to poke holes at your expat package, it's just common sense. If a guy is single, or don't have kids, it makes no sense to rent a 3 bedroom, expat or not.

Dont be so misleading.
MrAndy is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2018, 17:34
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Hong kong
Posts: 103
There is no point in pointing out the pitfalls to a blind man who doesn’t want your advice in the first place . Let Andy Cap stumble and fall , all on his own because he isn’t interested an anything anyone else has to say .
Tea time is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2018, 19:08
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 511
Mr. Andy,
if Cathay could recruit experienced pilots locally it most certainly would. Since it cannot, it is forced to compete on the open market for pilots who are suitably qualified and experienced. To entice a suitably qualified candidate it must offer a suitable package. As there is not a pool of first world pilots available for recruitment in Hong Kong ...in must ďcompeteĒ for suitable pilot candidates in first world countries.

Every day, there is a constant stream of Hong Kong people that leave the territory to immigrate to first world countries. Have you noticed that there are no people from first world countries that immigrate, on a permanent basis, to Hong Kong? Can you think of any reasons why the immigration stream only exists in one direction? Do you suppose that there are reasons for that? What do you think those reasons might be? Could it have anything to do with people seeking what might be best for his/her family?

This is not meant to denigrate Hong Kong. It is a great city, and the people are fantastic. However, Hong Kong is not Europe, North America, or Australia. As such, if the average citizen of Hong Kong has determined that itís best to emigrate out, then recruiting people from the first world to move to Hong Kong will require a package somewhat beyond what the average citizen of Hong Kong earns.

Now, I donít know if youíre a recent recruit or a young wannabe with zero life experience, not to mention flying experience. If you feel comfortable ignoring the opinions of the vast, vast, majority of expatriates who actually work and live in Hong Kong then thatís your prerogative. But please spare me your moral judgement on how I run my air conditioning, or how big a flat I think might be suitable. That level of adolescent arrogance is more than I should be expected to bear without responding.
raven11 is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2018, 00:15
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 749
Raven. Good post. The problem is that (as is usually the case) people will rationalise the argument to suit the answer they wish to have. In this case, Mr Andy wants to ignore the volume of factual comments based on experience, and concoct an argument where his facts suit his outcome. He could probably say the same about our arguments, other than the fact that our comments are based on years of actual experience in HK. I might also point him to another fact; many of the junior, "single", "childless" pilots I fly with are also making deliberate plans to leave.

A colleagues long haul flight last week had all three of his crew leaving in the next six months (one after his next flight). One of my closest friends in the company recently left as a Captain, to work as a first officer elsewhere. Wannabes will do what wannabes always do; they focus on "shiny jet syndrome" (which CX uses to manipulate them) and they then spend several years wishing they had simply listened to those who had already paid the price. CX is quite happy to use those types of people as seat warmers for a few years.

The company really doesn't expect anyone to stay for a career anymore. In fact, they really don't want anyone staying for a career, as they only become more expensive as the years go by.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2018, 03:51
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 358
Good post Raven, but one correction:
CX no longer feel the need to recruit in first world countries.
Loopdeloop is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2018, 04:28
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 66
OK, I live in Tung Chung. Have done for 15 or so years and very happy there. 1200sq ft 25,000, electricity average 1800, maid - part time once per week at 100HKD per hour. Food on a par with Sydney where I also keep a home. Overall about the same as Sydney apart from public transport which is far better and much cheaper here.
shortly2 is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2018, 04:36
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,933
Originally Posted by shortly2 View Post
OK, I live in Tung Chung. Have done for 15 or so years and very happy there. 1200sq ft 25,000, electricity average 1800, maid - part time once per week at 100HKD per hour. Food on a par with Sydney where I also keep a home. Overall about the same as Sydney apart from public transport which is far better and much cheaper here.
Iíll take Sydney off my bucket list then.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2018, 07:44
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by raven11 View Post
If you feel comfortable ignoring the opinions of the vast, vast, majority of expatriates who actually work and live in Hong Kong then thatís your prerogative. But please spare me your moral judgement on how I run my air conditioning, or how big a flat I think might be suitable. That level of adolescent arrogance is more than I should be expected to bear without responding.
How am I ignoring advice or being arrogant? Not once have I focused on Cathay's contract in the discussion. The topic was about cost of living for wannabe pilots, not Cathay, not COS18, not expat recruiting, just cost of living with some numbers in the OP. I pointed out that the numbers make no sense to the demographic (namely, those on the wannabe forum), and in my opinion appears overly inflated. Take it, leave it, or argue, but atleast be civil about it.
​​​​​​
How this escalated to the point of all out Cathay politics is astonishing, although probably not surprising. I'm not here to talk about Cathay. For the record, I also bear no judgement on how you use your AC nor how large your flat is. It's your money. It is simply my opinion that if you post information about cost of living for the benefit of others that you strive to be accurate and not drag this political baggage into the discussion.
MrAndy is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2018, 08:29
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: sydney
Age: 44
Posts: 21
And who in their right mind would want to live in Tung Chung?
A more soulless concrete jungle would be hard to find.
Perhaps that and the fact that it is miles from anything remotely civilized is why it is cheap by Hong Kong standards.
bonzaboy is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2018, 10:40
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Used to be God's own County
Posts: 1,567
You will have to up the budget for ĎFuní
Drinking and women are much more expensive these days. These expenses quickly add up and can seriously affect your finances. There are some beautiful woman that deserve your investment ......
EESDL is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2018, 12:57
  #31 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Shh..
Posts: 34
Living in HK is crap. But cx doesn't even help you out in your choice to commute.
Unless you have joined a long long time ago, no one is going to help pay for your kid's schooling if you decided to commute.
So they are forcing you to live in your base, and accept their deteriorating conditions while everything gets more expensive.
Wannabes, cos18 is perfect if you want to be single and forever living in a 400sq ft shoe box. Guess what, after 7 years you will have the chance to give up your exotic unheard of passport for a HK CHINA passport, how exciting!
carolknows is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2018, 16:36
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 1,054
Carolknows has done everyone a service by posting some actual numbers (followed by others)

The continued complaints about CX pay and conditions is remarkable - clearly a lot of people feel they've been conned or (more likely) their benefits have been eroded.

On the other hand a lot of them seem to stay and moan - presumably even CX poor terms are better than Ryanair or similar

To those outside HK a lot of it seems to be a desire for T&C and a life style which is long gone TBH - complaining about living in Tung Chung (and presumably wanting to live in Central) is like European pilots wanting to live in 1e - to 7e arrondissement or Mayfair - possible once but ...............................
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2018, 16:51
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by MrAndy View Post
While I think everyone can agree that Hong Kong is expensive, the figures posted here makes me think that someone has had a disconnect between expectation and reality before moving to Hong Kong. So letís break this down:

1) 40K + for a 3 bedroom 1000í sqft flat. Does anyone seriously believe that the average forum user on the wannabe forum need a place that large? Most people who come for a flying job are either single, or married without kids. You donít need even half the space for this demographic, and most people in HK donít even make that much money a month.

2) 3K electrical bill. Do you seriously need to have your AC/heat, dehumidifier, and air purifier running 24/7? A lot of AC units are all-in-one and self regulate temperature these days, which significantly reduces cost.

3) Helper. The only time I see that you actually need this is if you are taking care of an elderly, or kids, and no one is home on most days. A luxury expense.

4) 4-6K in groceries. HK groceries are not cheap, but not that bank breaking. Especially if you are importing from China (which is cheap), I simply canít see you break your bank unless you are having imported steak every night. Most people in China donít even make that much money, and still manage to eat 3 meals a day, on-time.

5) Fun, food, or movies. Ok, the average movie is around 120HKD, which is about 20 AUD or CAD, which is pretty average. If you have a family of five who all partake with some extra curricular and you eat out, maybe it will reach 3000HKD a month. But this would surely offset other costs would it not?

6) Car. A luxury expense. You can get around HK without one. Most do.

7) 2-3K in misc. there are always misc expenses, but 2-3K?

8) Tax. Where Iím from, the government can take over a third of what you make. In HK, ~15%

Iím not trying to be confrontational here, but if you are quoting an upward expense of 80000HKD a month (which is a very conservative summation of all your quoted expenses), you either came from living in a palace, or some truly exceptional circumstances.
1. Fair point.

2. Yes, you do. Air quality is often poor so at the very least you must run your air purifier for much of the day. Air conditioning and/or dehumidifier is necessary due to the humidity and associated mould. It's much more humid in HK than you might think. Going on a 5 day work trip can result in mould on your clothes and walls. This includes new buildings. You can't really avoid this no matter where you live in Hong Kong.

3. Fair point. Although the aforementioned mould is a constant battle and quite a bit of work (I've lived in new/old apartments, renovated/old etc and its the same story). Good to have someone coming in to give a thorough wash once a week to avoid it.

4. Chinese style groceries are super-cheap. So if you are eating Chinese food all the time, it's not expensive. However, the quality of the imported Chinese produce is very average. The meat is definitely of very poor quality. I have tried several times to take this route for the cost savings, but it really isn't worth it. Some of it is quite revolting. Full of chemicals, hormones and other nasties. They look fake and taste bland. Good quality fruit, vegetables and meats are expensive. Even daily basics are expensive. Can't really be avoided.

5. I actually think the movies here are better value. Much nicer than cinemas in the UK, USA and Canada in my opinion. However, going to a bar, restaurant or pub is very expensive. As a couple, going for a night out once a week, dinner at reasonable restaurant and a one or two drinks (literally) at a bar is easily $5000 a month.

6. Fair point. Although its a balance. If you want to live somewhere with easy access to shops, services, restaurants, bars, taxis and other public transport (Central, Mid-Levels, Happy Valley, Wan Chai, Sai Ying Pun) then your rent will be very high. If you want to save on rent and live somewhere cheaper (Sai Kung, Clearwater Bay, South Lantau, Gold Coast, New Territories) then you will need a car as the services are sparse.

7. ???

8. Tax is low in HK and thats awesome.
HoldenCaufield is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2018, 01:50
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 23
Holden, you make a good point on the problem of mould. It becomes more prevalent during some seasons than others (Spring), and I never considered it when factoring cost. I note a lot of the locals turn off their AC when going out or when it is cool, so I assume most people just tend to do that.
MrAndy is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2018, 04:34
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,762
Originally Posted by shortly2 View Post
Food on a par with Sydney where I also keep a home. Overall about the same as Sydney apart from public transport which is far better and much cheaper here.
Are you comparing KFC in SYD versus KFC in Tung Chung ? How can you seriously compare Sydney dining with Cafe de Coral and friends-or at best a Novotel steak ? Or fresh Australian produce versus imported produce from China at Welcome in Tung Chung?

I have a place in SYD too. Itís incomparable to Tung Chung !


Gnadenburg is online now  
Old 27th Dec 2018, 04:54
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In someone pocket
Posts: 1,129
And dont forget to pay $3usd/euro for a litre of milk beverage, hkg milk of choice. (milk solid mixed with water), even worst of you going for the half fat and the fat free. the Pure milk (straight from golden breast of a cow) cost around $5 or 5 euro per litre, then there is the butter $10usd/euro per block of basic butter. I think aussie butter/margarine is slighly cheaper.
jetjockey696 is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2018, 06:27
  #37 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Shh..
Posts: 34
I think cos18 is only fair if the mgmt can demonstrate how they survive on these terms and conditions.
Kinda chuckled out when I saw the company is going to roll out a WELL BEING 2019 campaign. And even quoted, "According to Oxford Dictionaries, wellbeing means a state of being comfortable, happy and healthy." Yes I agree.
carolknows is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2018, 12:48
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Wherever the work is...
Posts: 117
What about the big picture: disposable income aka savings?

What's the point of leading the expat life if your Employment package (remuneration) doesn't provide the opportunity to SAVE money at the end of the month?

After all, isn't that how Employers are meant to attract (and retain) expat talent- by paying you OVER AND ABOVE local T's and C's so that you can build wealth to provide for a life after work in your home Country?

The sad thing is that everyone seems to be focussed on how much money is enough to live month to month on current and proposed COS's.

I couldn't think of anything more depressing than leaving my home Country for a much lower standard of living, and knowing that I'll never have the ability to save/ invest enough to build enough wealth that will provide for the standard of living back at home later in life.

wasn't that meant to be the payoff for being an expat?
Gearupandorrf is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.