Is there no Pros to being in CX?
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Is there no Pros to being in CX?
So I'm considering joining the CX cadet program and after combing through the forums, I can see a lot of people are frustrated with CX and their management, the packages, the fact that it's not the same company it was 7 years ago (nothing is we're all going to s**t) etc. So is there truly no redeeming factor to CX? Also are new joiners really "undiscerning and lacking foresight" as one person has commented. Please bare in mind my interest in joining the cadet programme is out of genuine interest in aviation and not the 'lifestyle' as it seems the stereotype is we all just want to chill on IG and we have mum and dads money so we don't care about the contract and pay. Honest opinions please, don't hold back but if all you have to say is 'run for the hills' then I've heard it already.
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GO ahead and join if that's what you want to do , clearly you aren't going to listen to anyone who has years of prior experience with the company .
Your post reminds me of someone who researches say a car, finds the one they like but then finds that it has nothing but terrible reviews attached to it . So you choose to ignore the reviews and buy it anyway, after a few months of constant repairs you begin to wish that you had heeded the reviews that you read.
You need money to live in HK ,lots of it and you aren't going to get it in CX . But what the hell do whatever you want just don't say we didn't warn you . There are any number of cadetship courses on offer from better airlines.
Your post reminds me of someone who researches say a car, finds the one they like but then finds that it has nothing but terrible reviews attached to it . So you choose to ignore the reviews and buy it anyway, after a few months of constant repairs you begin to wish that you had heeded the reviews that you read.
You need money to live in HK ,lots of it and you aren't going to get it in CX . But what the hell do whatever you want just don't say we didn't warn you . There are any number of cadetship courses on offer from better airlines.
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I’ll say two good things about CX for someone like you...
1) You don’t have to be a good pilot, or a pilot at all, to work here. Of course, being a CX SO for 5 years won’t change that.
2) The standards are now so low that even someone with horrible English reading, writing, listening, and speaking skills can get by.
Btw, it’s “Are there any pros to being in CX?”
The answer in all honestly is not really. It’s not even a good place for a zero or low timer anymore because the JFO upgrade takes too long. Therefore, you don’t gain any meaningful time, experience, or skills for far too long. Any questions???
1) You don’t have to be a good pilot, or a pilot at all, to work here. Of course, being a CX SO for 5 years won’t change that.
2) The standards are now so low that even someone with horrible English reading, writing, listening, and speaking skills can get by.
Btw, it’s “Are there any pros to being in CX?”
The answer in all honestly is not really. It’s not even a good place for a zero or low timer anymore because the JFO upgrade takes too long. Therefore, you don’t gain any meaningful time, experience, or skills for far too long. Any questions???
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Well then I guess you've heard it all and need to stick your hand into the boiling water to figure out it's hot. Good luck with that.
Learning to fly and gaining certificates and ratings can be expensive. There are many paths toward this--both civil and military--and each have their advantages and disadvantages. In general, it's better if you can get someone ELSE to pay for these and even better if they are paying you something for your efforts as well. If you DON'T have the certificates, ratings, and flying hours this may be one way to obtain the basic ratings. IMHO if you stay beyond this you are making a grave career error. It also can be a fun job if you enjoy traveling and seeing different places around the world. In general, you're reasonably well taken care of on the road and can go to some pretty cool places and meet some decent people.
Some people pay for sim time; you can look on it as 'free' sim experience and some training exposure into airline ops and large aircraft. If you're interested in flying--really flying--you won't get much if any of that here and will spend most of your time pushing buttons (or watching someone push buttons) managing an autopilot watching air go by (while verbalizing scripted callouts which remind me of a tennis match). Almost any regional would be better for obtaining more hands on experience and proficiency in actually flying. The role is to get people safely and cheaply from point A to point B on time if possible using all the tools you have. Boring is good for the mission; exciting tends to spook pax. You can gain some experience in international ops and weather avoidance, fuel management, the multitude of rules, multi crew flying in an EXTREMELY regimented and SOP oriented environment (which also has its advantages and drawbacks), CRM, etc. So there might be value in this. But most of the flights will be long haul (where you can learn some stuff about oceanic and international polar ops, etc.) -- again watching air go by and trying to stay awake.
If, as you say, your interest is genuinely in aviation (or at least a passion for the flying portion) IMHO this isn't the place for you. Other than maybe learning how airline ops work. Very paint by the numbers and there isn't room for individuality or much creativity (or actual hands on).
As a career, IMHO forget it. If there was ever any doubt, POS 18 put the nail in that coffin (IMHO it's simply a bastardized hourly contract without any of the rigs, pay protection, benefits, protections, bidding and trade system, two way rostering, or good things--including incentives and win-wins-- that exist in a 'real' hourly airline contract).
So, to me the bottom line is if you have NO OTHER viable method to obtain certificates and ratings this could be a potential option (and give you some exposure to flying and airline ops). The trainers themselves in my experience have (at least over the latter years) been pretty good and do care (again there are personalities and the standard one off kinds of things which happen). But there remains a great deal of 'here's the book, figure it out" types of things.
The one thing you have to watch out for is getting suckered in (ala the "Las Vegas" syndrome) believing things might get better or letting the place steal too much of your time.
Learning to fly and gaining certificates and ratings can be expensive. There are many paths toward this--both civil and military--and each have their advantages and disadvantages. In general, it's better if you can get someone ELSE to pay for these and even better if they are paying you something for your efforts as well. If you DON'T have the certificates, ratings, and flying hours this may be one way to obtain the basic ratings. IMHO if you stay beyond this you are making a grave career error. It also can be a fun job if you enjoy traveling and seeing different places around the world. In general, you're reasonably well taken care of on the road and can go to some pretty cool places and meet some decent people.
Some people pay for sim time; you can look on it as 'free' sim experience and some training exposure into airline ops and large aircraft. If you're interested in flying--really flying--you won't get much if any of that here and will spend most of your time pushing buttons (or watching someone push buttons) managing an autopilot watching air go by (while verbalizing scripted callouts which remind me of a tennis match). Almost any regional would be better for obtaining more hands on experience and proficiency in actually flying. The role is to get people safely and cheaply from point A to point B on time if possible using all the tools you have. Boring is good for the mission; exciting tends to spook pax. You can gain some experience in international ops and weather avoidance, fuel management, the multitude of rules, multi crew flying in an EXTREMELY regimented and SOP oriented environment (which also has its advantages and drawbacks), CRM, etc. So there might be value in this. But most of the flights will be long haul (where you can learn some stuff about oceanic and international polar ops, etc.) -- again watching air go by and trying to stay awake.
If, as you say, your interest is genuinely in aviation (or at least a passion for the flying portion) IMHO this isn't the place for you. Other than maybe learning how airline ops work. Very paint by the numbers and there isn't room for individuality or much creativity (or actual hands on).
As a career, IMHO forget it. If there was ever any doubt, POS 18 put the nail in that coffin (IMHO it's simply a bastardized hourly contract without any of the rigs, pay protection, benefits, protections, bidding and trade system, two way rostering, or good things--including incentives and win-wins-- that exist in a 'real' hourly airline contract).
So, to me the bottom line is if you have NO OTHER viable method to obtain certificates and ratings this could be a potential option (and give you some exposure to flying and airline ops). The trainers themselves in my experience have (at least over the latter years) been pretty good and do care (again there are personalities and the standard one off kinds of things which happen). But there remains a great deal of 'here's the book, figure it out" types of things.
The one thing you have to watch out for is getting suckered in (ala the "Las Vegas" syndrome) believing things might get better or letting the place steal too much of your time.
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So I'm considering joining the CX cadet program and after combing through the forums, I can see a lot of people are frustrated with CX and their management, the packages, the fact that it's not the same company it was 7 years ago (nothing is we're all going to s**t) etc. So is there truly no redeeming factor to CX? Also are new joiners really "undiscerning and lacking foresight" as one person has commented. Please bare in mind my interest in joining the cadet programme is out of genuine interest in aviation and not the 'lifestyle' as it seems the stereotype is we all just want to chill on IG and we have mum and dads money so we don't care about the contract and pay. Honest opinions please, don't hold back but if all you have to say is 'run for the hills' then I've heard it already.
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Slasher1;
Thank you, indeed that was one of the concerning factors when considering which path to take into aviation, as you said obviously having someone pay for your efforts is great. Of course being able to work for a major airline straight out of training seemed to be a great opportunity too.
Although I'm also not interested in going through all the training to babysit the autopilot for 5 years or more, and I do hope to actually keep learning as I go and rising through the ranks. My inclination to join was due to my own inexperience and it seemed this would be a good way to get into aviation (I've heard CX had some of the best trainers).
Obviously I'd heard a few complaints but initially I thought I could just do my five years and move on. Now I'm not sure it's worth it, but again thank you for your insight and not feeling the need to be condescending with your opinion.
Thank you, indeed that was one of the concerning factors when considering which path to take into aviation, as you said obviously having someone pay for your efforts is great. Of course being able to work for a major airline straight out of training seemed to be a great opportunity too.
Although I'm also not interested in going through all the training to babysit the autopilot for 5 years or more, and I do hope to actually keep learning as I go and rising through the ranks. My inclination to join was due to my own inexperience and it seemed this would be a good way to get into aviation (I've heard CX had some of the best trainers).
Obviously I'd heard a few complaints but initially I thought I could just do my five years and move on. Now I'm not sure it's worth it, but again thank you for your insight and not feeling the need to be condescending with your opinion.
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PYL,
CX does have some pretty good trainers who come from a multitude of different backgrounds, but your experience will be limited to the environment in which CX operates. If you are a Hong Kong local, it is a valid way to break into the industry, but it is worth your while to look beyond the horizons of Hong Kong if such options are available.
If you do choose CX, however, there area few pressing issues you must contend to. Besides the long and extended upgrade times due to management decisions to cut costs, the organization is also suffering from some serious cultural problems. Morale is low, and if you haven't figured out from some of the posts here, some of your would-be coworkers may be potentially hostile to you as well. It does not foster a good learning environment, which is a shame, because even if you are enthusiastic for aviation, it has the potential of chipping away at you the wrong way. This may hurt your enthusiasm, and I know a lot of people whose dreams of flying become crushed by this. This likely won't get any better either until some executive actually does their job to turn the ship around, and the workforce starts working as a team again.
Best of luck to whatever you choose though. Having the enthusiasm for flying is really something special, and whatever you do, don't let others take it away from you.
CX does have some pretty good trainers who come from a multitude of different backgrounds, but your experience will be limited to the environment in which CX operates. If you are a Hong Kong local, it is a valid way to break into the industry, but it is worth your while to look beyond the horizons of Hong Kong if such options are available.
If you do choose CX, however, there area few pressing issues you must contend to. Besides the long and extended upgrade times due to management decisions to cut costs, the organization is also suffering from some serious cultural problems. Morale is low, and if you haven't figured out from some of the posts here, some of your would-be coworkers may be potentially hostile to you as well. It does not foster a good learning environment, which is a shame, because even if you are enthusiastic for aviation, it has the potential of chipping away at you the wrong way. This may hurt your enthusiasm, and I know a lot of people whose dreams of flying become crushed by this. This likely won't get any better either until some executive actually does their job to turn the ship around, and the workforce starts working as a team again.
Best of luck to whatever you choose though. Having the enthusiasm for flying is really something special, and whatever you do, don't let others take it away from you.
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From my experience, CX trainers generally know their stuff, as do most captains. However, there is a wide range in terms of actual skill training the various pilots in the pipeline. You will see everything from the Grinch who will beat you over the head with a wet newspaper to Santa Claus who will pass you regardless of your performance. There are very few sitting in that middle sweetspot that execute good CRM while maintaining high standards. The difficulty now is that maintaining the old CX standard is impossible due to the quality of the new hires and the fact that they decay as SOs for far too long (4-5 years plus).
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MrAndy,
I'm fortunate enough that I can consider other ways to get into aviation, just want to make sure I've pro and conned every option before I make my choices. So far it seems the only pro is good trainers. You're right, the negativity is rather repelling too when these are the people I might hope to learn from one day. Although I must confess I'm a little confused by the hostility.
Thank you for your encouraging words, it's something I really wanted to get into so I just want to make sure I don't mess up my chances.
I'm fortunate enough that I can consider other ways to get into aviation, just want to make sure I've pro and conned every option before I make my choices. So far it seems the only pro is good trainers. You're right, the negativity is rather repelling too when these are the people I might hope to learn from one day. Although I must confess I'm a little confused by the hostility.
Thank you for your encouraging words, it's something I really wanted to get into so I just want to make sure I don't mess up my chances.
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At the end of the day the decision is yours. I have been in Cathay a long time, whilst I understand (a Little) the dis-affection of some pilots here, I can't say I agree. I find Hong Kong a fun place to live, expensive yes but so are London and Sydney. Polluted well yes but so were Europe and America a few years ago, it will improve. I can honestly say that my experience at CX has been very pleasant. Due to a few strange management decisions we have been struggling for a few years, but there is light at the end of the tunnel and it's not a train. The training is generally OK, you may run across the odd dinosaur, but where won't you? If you are married/attached you may struggle with the finances initially but obviously starting anywhere is the same. The jets are great and I think our prospects are sound. I now expect to be called a management troll etc etc. Fill your boots guys water off a ducks back. But for the young person asking. I would still join.
PYL,
You mentioned 'Although I must confess I'm a little confused by the hostility.'
Simply put, the terms and conditions that you aspire to join on, will become the new target for Cathay to drive existing employee's towards. History shows us this.
I joined when there was no scale. The term 'A' scale was only introduced when the 'B' was devised, so on and so forth as successive inferior scales, such as ASL, or 'C' scale were introduced. My conditions effectively froze until the 'B' scale caught up to the point where my salary had stagnated. Thereafter it rose in line with the 'B'scale, but it took many years to do so.
If history repeats itself, as is likely, you can perhaps begin to understand why you sense a degree of hostility. Every new joiner affirms in the managements view that the new low bar is acceptable, and it is now extraordinarily low. Get a copy of the new 'Policy of Service', not just the highlights document. Management will probably term it COS18. Understand it well before you commit.
You mentioned 'Although I must confess I'm a little confused by the hostility.'
Simply put, the terms and conditions that you aspire to join on, will become the new target for Cathay to drive existing employee's towards. History shows us this.
I joined when there was no scale. The term 'A' scale was only introduced when the 'B' was devised, so on and so forth as successive inferior scales, such as ASL, or 'C' scale were introduced. My conditions effectively froze until the 'B' scale caught up to the point where my salary had stagnated. Thereafter it rose in line with the 'B'scale, but it took many years to do so.
If history repeats itself, as is likely, you can perhaps begin to understand why you sense a degree of hostility. Every new joiner affirms in the managements view that the new low bar is acceptable, and it is now extraordinarily low. Get a copy of the new 'Policy of Service', not just the highlights document. Management will probably term it COS18. Understand it well before you commit.
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As a cadet, with I'm assuming little to no flying hours CX is one of the very few airlines that will fund your training, which is quite a major pro. Think only Lufthansa, Air France, Emirates, Aer Lingus and CX offer ab-initio training that you don't have to pay up-front, even BA have recently gone down the road of requiring a contribution of £100,000+ from their cadets.
For someone wanting to pursue flying with low hours the CX cadet program remains one of the best opportunities out there. If your alternative is to fly in Europe then your options are very limited:
option 1: try out for one of the self funded cadet programs (easyJet, Vueling, Flybe, BA) either work for 10+ years saving as much as you can, take out a massive loan or have a rich family to afford the £100,000+ course fees.
option 2: again spend £100,000+ on an integrated course with a flying school with airline links on the hope that you might be able to land a jet job straight out of school.
option 3: go modular and still spend around £50,000-70,000 on your training, if you're very lucky then drop another £5000 on a type rating with a 3 year bond attached to fly for Ryanair and if you're not lucky then end up with f*ck all just again a lot of debt or wasted money.
CX may not be perfect, but there really is no better opportunity out there for someone who would be in the position of applying for the cadet program
For someone wanting to pursue flying with low hours the CX cadet program remains one of the best opportunities out there. If your alternative is to fly in Europe then your options are very limited:
option 1: try out for one of the self funded cadet programs (easyJet, Vueling, Flybe, BA) either work for 10+ years saving as much as you can, take out a massive loan or have a rich family to afford the £100,000+ course fees.
option 2: again spend £100,000+ on an integrated course with a flying school with airline links on the hope that you might be able to land a jet job straight out of school.
option 3: go modular and still spend around £50,000-70,000 on your training, if you're very lucky then drop another £5000 on a type rating with a 3 year bond attached to fly for Ryanair and if you're not lucky then end up with f*ck all just again a lot of debt or wasted money.
CX may not be perfect, but there really is no better opportunity out there for someone who would be in the position of applying for the cadet program
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....and that about sums up the present day CX; an airline of inexperienced, somewhat immature youngsters with no concept of the bigger aviation picture. Before anyone jumps on me, I am not blaming the individual. Simply describing the reality of a once great airline, that has now descended to the level of a low-cost third world carrier, who's management seemingly believes that the jets can effectively fly themselves, and the experience and loyalty of old is of no value. Time will tell whether the management decisions that have brought us to this point were valid or not. From where I stand, the slow descent of this airline is highly worrying. For the 20somethings that are transfixed by the "shiny jet syndrome"....come on over. Just don't expect an easy, happy or fulfilling career here. You will end up as disillusioned as the rest of us in due time. I suppose soaking CX for a flying education is not a bad idea if there are no other options. It is blatantly obvious that CX is exchanging the experience they now possess for the inexperience that is willing to work for the latest appalling contract terms. That is the reality of our company today. Merry Christmas.
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Dan, I think it's time to let the chips fall where they may, and let low time wannabe's make the mistake of a lifetime. Frankly, if they can't do some research and reach the obvious conclusion, they deserve the misery they will cause themselves and their families. There is no saving CX, so we might as well be entertained by the implosion.
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Dan, I think it's time to let the chips fall where they may, and let low time wannabe's make the mistake of a lifetime. Frankly, if they can't do some research and reach the obvious conclusion, they deserve the misery they will cause themselves and their families. There is no saving CX, so we might as well be entertained by the implosion.
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I think many people find it hard to take the warnings seriously because a) the truth about CX and HKG in general can be pretty hard to believe, and b) some guys are pretty hyperbolic about their warnings to the point of ridiculousness. For example, in the thread about how much it costs to live here the "average" expat's budget included ~$80K in expenses. The "average" expat hire in 1998 can probably relate to that but in 2018 the average expat hire is single and not going to spend anywhere close to that much. I sure as hell didn't and no I didn't live on cup noodles in a 100 sq ft shanty in the NT.
For the record, I'm trying to get out of here as fast as I can and happily taking a massive pay cut to do so. There are definitely pros to working here, but they don't outweigh the negatives by a long shot. I wouldn't recommend anyone come here, except for locals.
For the record, I'm trying to get out of here as fast as I can and happily taking a massive pay cut to do so. There are definitely pros to working here, but they don't outweigh the negatives by a long shot. I wouldn't recommend anyone come here, except for locals.
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No offence but if you guys had walked the talk, it would have given credence to all your rants about CX. But the fact that the vast majority of you are still lingering at CX, despite all the alleged pitfalls, suggests otherwise.
May be, you guys are hoping that by dissuading potential applicants from joining, CX will somehow fall short of pilots, which will consequently lead to a better T&C, which you guys can then enjoy.
Seriously guys, if things were that bad, you would have just got the f out of HK, pronto. Period.
Don't get me started with alibis like 'I only have x years to retirement' or 'I have kids at school' or the likes. If CX is really that bad, as most of you insinuate, vote with your feet. As I said earlier, it will at least give credence to all our moans and rants.
Just my 2 cents, who is looking for that ever elusive airline job.
May be, you guys are hoping that by dissuading potential applicants from joining, CX will somehow fall short of pilots, which will consequently lead to a better T&C, which you guys can then enjoy.
Seriously guys, if things were that bad, you would have just got the f out of HK, pronto. Period.
Don't get me started with alibis like 'I only have x years to retirement' or 'I have kids at school' or the likes. If CX is really that bad, as most of you insinuate, vote with your feet. As I said earlier, it will at least give credence to all our moans and rants.
Just my 2 cents, who is looking for that ever elusive airline job.
