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DPA members to vote on training ban

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DPA members to vote on training ban

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Old 9th Nov 2018, 02:14
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
Then rename them SCABS
Yes United, sit back and expect the trainers to carry the burden and then attack them if they chose not to join in the industrial action for which they have been volunteered. Without a united front of CC too this isnít gong to work.
It wonít get voted in anyway as the silent majority donít want to lose the RPA and leave scheme.
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 02:15
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Originally Posted by Dan Winterland View Post
The last contract compliance campaign was only successful in that the working conditions at KA became so poor that pilots were leaving in large numbers. The 'back on board policy' was introduced because flights were being cancelled for lack of pilots. It was market forces and not the contract compliance that won.
Hi Dan,

If KA pilots were not in Contract Compliance during this period of high attrition, the flying program would have been covered by good will. It's that simple. Contract Compliance became devastatingly effective once attrition became fashionable. It further became a dynamic spiral for management when pilots leaving, were so resentful of the company, it was an industrial scorched earth policy. Resignations by ACARS, a management coined tactical sick leave campaign and we even had Time Magazine and the SCMP on our side.

I remember being asked to fly on a G Day by crew control and I said I couldn't because it was Capt Bloggs farewell party. She laughed and said it was Bloggs flying that needed covering. I suggested our managers may be free and she said they'd been flying all week. On a serious note, I feel our protracted industrial dispute had us exposed on the safety front.

One caveat of course, what worked then, won't work now.
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 02:46
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Angry

Originally Posted by GMEDX View Post
<div style="text-align:left;"><br />Yes United, sit back and expect the trainers to carry the burden and then attack them if they chose not to join in the industrial action for which they have been volunteered. Without a united front of CC too this isn’t gong to work.<br />It won’t get voted in anyway as the silent majority don’t want to lose the RPA and leave scheme.</div><br /><br /><br />
<br /><br /><br />This is an interesting argument. Who would carry the burden of a training ban? Who would carry the burden of a wider industrial campaign in contract compliance? A recruitment ban?<br /><br />Everyone will lose out somewhere. If this is the path KA pilots are headed ( a wider CC campaign ) as predicted by retired managers last year, it pays to be brutally frank who the losers are going to be. And that means being honest about what's been going on now. An example being G day working and excessive OT payments- which I believe are one primer for the vulnerability of our leave scheme. Clerks have a list of pilots hunting work on their G days , brimming with the most expensive ones ( have a think about the costs a pilot with additions on their base wage ), who they call every day to cover the program. RPA scheme ? Some of these guys are even working on their leave so it's money and more money they want and not lifestyle or even fatigue protection! It's been a pot of gold and contract compliance would strip a percentage of the membership of a lot of money. More so than the DPA can achieve and good luck with the moral argument- I wouldn't want to get between these guys and a pot of gold and all I can hope for is their kids end up on COS 18.

Last edited by Gnadenburg; 9th Nov 2018 at 03:07.
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 03:01
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Now there is the same contract for both Dragon and Cathay maybe the unions should merge some shared interests.. increase the bargaining power
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 03:16
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rustyoldtin View Post
Now there is the same contract for both Dragon and Cathay maybe the unions should merge some shared interests.. increase the bargaining power
Why would we at CX drag our colleagues at KA into the shit we now find ourselves in due to our appalling union leadership ? Thats like pulling someone out of a lifeboat to drown with you.
Now if the person in the lifeboat wants to help the person out of the water then taht is different. But before that the chairman and GC would need to resign and we then take direction from the DPA.

Last edited by unitedabx; 9th Nov 2018 at 03:18. Reason: spelling
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 03:21
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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If KA pilots were not in Contract Compliance during this period of high attrition, the flying program would have been covered by good will.
I doubt it. If you were here at the time you will remember we were working to the max - there was nothing extra to give. The only way that CC worked was with everyone leaving because they were so hacked off. CC works both ways and minimum G days coupled with max duty times took their toll and many people walked. And there were still people working on the few G days they could.
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 03:36
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
Then rename them SCABS
ďScabsĒ cross picket lines and work during a strike. There is no other definition. You guys want to see who the scabs are? Then we should vote to strike! Until then, itís just a bunch of hot air.
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 07:24
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
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10 years ago, There was a recruitment ban in place on the freighter . Three Australian pilots joined the B747, contrary to the ban. They then transferred to KA Airbus , Hong Kong on full B scale package.

At least one of them is now a A320 TRI. Yes, a TRI ffs.

So the motto in ka is, no one gives a f#$$# , you will get promoted if you are slippery enough.

And why a training ban, and not contract compliance?
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 08:14
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Those three have never been allowed to join the DPA despite having the nerve to ask several times.
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 08:32
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Same Contract

Originally Posted by rustyoldtin View Post
Now there is the same contract for both Dragon and Cathay maybe the unions should merge some shared interests.. increase the bargaining power
Yup, same contract however they have now consolidated the broomstick to save on capital expenditures...
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Old 9th Nov 2018, 08:36
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
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Dear Managers

Dear Managers,

As I am sure you are following this forum as well please find my thoughts below:

First: Isn't it awkward that this issue is being discussed in an open pilot forum instead of only within the internal Pilot's Association Forum? So why does this happen? Does your strategy of ruling by fear pay off as union members dare not to voice their opinion in a forum where the names are displayed, like in the DPA forum?

Second: How often has the pilots' group heard your threats: RPA, Leave system,... but, how much more often will you threaten us in future? How much further will you start pinching the few goodies we have? Remember the pink HK$60 meal voucher? Negotiating in good faith? Believe me, the trust of most of the pilots in your leadership has long gone. BTW, when will the renovation in the Grand Hi Lai Hotel in KHH be finished? Are you absolutely sure that HAS will run through the rubbish bags of the airplane to scavenge recycable paper? Maybe the next FCN will tell us that Santa will drop through the chimney on Christmas Day!

Third: When was the last time you have had a multiple days trip? Rushing through HK airport to catch the connecting flight from gate 49 to find out the aircraft has changed and you run all the way back to gate number 1. Or better outer bay to Dragon Island? When was the last time you had stby at the airport for a few hours just because one of the (old) airplanes broke down or there was extensive ATC delay? When was the last time you were travelling in a Chinese made bus bouncing on a highway with unlit trucks having stopped on the middle lane to a hotel which, in cases, can be called barely adequate? And you call those scary bus rides and queuing up at immigration and airport security rest time?

Fourth: You are threatening your pilot group taking the leave system away: May I ask you which leave system you are on? Aren't you on the same leave system? BUT: how many weekends have you been flying last year? How many public holidays, your kidsí school events, parties have you missed? If you want to be taken seriously by your line pilots - please, go ahead and volunteer for working on weekends. No, not your favourite PNH, KHH or HKT day return, take the full lot of a nice three or four days pattern into China. While sitting on your managing positions for years you have completely lost track of what is going on in the real world!

Fifth: You are threatening your pilot group taking RPA away: Isn't that false economy? Taking away requests for late or early starts, weekends or max overnights, particular flight patterns: What will happen? Your pilot group will get an unhealthy mix of early and late starts, minimum days off, split duties,... The outcome will be a bunch of pilots who are just not only angry, they're also worn out, overworked and fatigued. Do you think this is a good idea especially in this unhealthy mix of flying older airplanes in a challenging environment? Why not introducing mutiple requests? Did it ever come into your mind that happier crew is also healthier crew?

Sixth and finally: With your permanent threatening of crew you have attained the complete opposite you wanted to achieve: I will vote YES for the training ban! Plus I would vote YES for Recruitment Ban and Contract Compliance if I had the option as I do not know which fairy tale you will tell me next! And, as most of you are still in the union, YOU should show unity as there is the threat of the union becoming obsolete and vote YES to training ban as well!
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Old 10th Nov 2018, 02:17
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dan Winterland View Post
I doubt it. If you were here at the time you will remember we were working to the max - there was nothing extra to give. The only way that CC worked was with everyone leaving because they were so hacked off. CC works both ways and minimum G days coupled with max duty times took their toll and many people walked. And there were still people working on the few G days they could.
I'm not advocating or presenting, nor glorifying CC, or even dismissing the inherent safety risks of CC, in my differing belief with you about how effective CC was previously.

There is an argument that CC costs the company 20% in efficiencies say, but they regain 25 % by tearing up RPA's and their "soft rules "- you know, the ones that apply only if the operation running smoothly ! The resulting pilot misery being a bone of contention amongst the pilot group as to the true effectiveness of CC.

The burn-out of KA pilots during the long period of full blown CC ( not the vanilla campaigns you note elsewhere ) was described by one AME as being worse than cases of combat fatigue in some cases. Mission orientated pilots, who struggled to self-regulate and saw themselves as essential cogs in the machine, operated at regulatory maximums for long periods of time. I actually felt this type of pilot is a high risk responsibility of the union even with responsibilities of fitness and fatigue mitigation clearly presented. One captain I know who was never unfit for duty ( F/O's may claim otherwise ) was a burn out and left for a better crappy job. I guess there were others.

How bad was it for the normal pilot? Perhaps my memory isn't being honest but there were aspects that seemed easier- buffers and not operating beyond the FTL's. Now, it's important here I'm not suggesting under the new masters it would be the same. The management coup comes to mind.

G Day workers? The present KA operation is reliant upon them. Being on the list is very lucrative and some will never give it up. I wont delve deeply here but I will say, the only way an industrial campaign can be successful is if it is lead by KA training pilots. They are worth 2-1 Line Captain for so many reasons. This is an issue with the training ban- and it is an issue if many trainers are on the golden g day list !
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Old 10th Nov 2018, 02:30
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ViktorNavorski View Post
A bunch of stuff.
Really? I went on the forum and have spoken vocally on what I believe in. With name and surname. You come on here and speak to managers about what forum we are discussing on and then carry on with a whole tirade trying to achieve exactly what?

Management can not grow a spine for you. There is even an anonymous means of posting on the forum through the secretary.

I really donít understand you people. Never will.

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Old 10th Nov 2018, 03:56
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
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If you guys donít strike!! This will never end. Strike and get end it.
On a positive note. I have left CX. The grass is green and soft and they even have a hammock with umbrella drinks by your side.
After 15 years. The future was clear to me. CX provided no future.
Good luck!!
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Old 10th Nov 2018, 03:59
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Originally Posted by Babbalito View Post
Comments like this make me seethe with rage. The selfish inaction of "I'm alright Jack" toss pots such as the OP has brought us to today's situation.
Well, it does affect us because it's grossly unfair just as the SC is grossly unfair.
Now is the time, SC and B scale, to take responsibility and support any initiative that resists the erosion of our profession. Again.
Seething with rage about something that you consider "unfair" ? Being an expat is unfair. But we all remain here. And continue to do it. Because, despite the unfairness and none accountability of our management, the dollars are the magnet that prevents most leaving. Yes, we should stand up and fight, for what we have and need to keep, not what the next person may or may not accept as a worthy contract..

An old time A Scaler once said, its you B scalers that are under threat, as A scale is now ring fenced and the company's moved on.
Ironically, B scale is now ring fenced. No more pay rises, only your contractual incriment.

A training ban will only let those who are unscrupulous , such as the three guys mentioned above, to slip through the system by not having to abide by the DPA ban.

Ultimately, the quality of training staff will be determined by wether the pilot is a member of the DPA. Or not. The oinks will prevail. And you think our company cares??
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 04:14
  #36 (permalink)  
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Voting started yesterday. KA management , all being members of the pilots union , are aware of the training ban, have reinstated all the trainers they fired last August. And to a man they have accepted.

Get what you want and screw everyone else. Its always been like this @ka.

My informed predictions is the ďNOĒs will prevail. The DPA will become irrelevant, except for D&G representatives and medical / peer support.

Fine by me .

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Old 14th Nov 2018, 05:42
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Who says they accepted to a man? Regardless, this motion will determine the future of this association (or lack there of).

If the motion does not pass two things will have been achieved:

1. Trainers have been rightly re-instated under the terms of their COS.

2. The DPA membership need not hold any illusions about representation.

It is a result we can work with one way or the other. We wonít have to pretend anymore that we are an association looking out for the collective interest and the company donít have to pretend to negotiate with us. If the motion passes our colleagues can decide whether or not to take up a position and choose which interests they want to serve.

Either way we know what to do from here. Thatís a good thing.
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 06:48
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Trainers Reinstated ??

"If" that is true, I would find it hard to distinguish between that move and bribery or extortion.
The trainers would now get to sit on their ass and get paid 10 - 15% additional remuneration than their colleagues for doing zero extra work.
What a great way to save on the budget....

Only at CX/KA
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 09:30
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
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For the company to stand down LTCs during this recent low, whilst keeping their right hand seat rating i.e., covering both seats for standbys, without paying an extra cent is an insult. DFO already announced training will ramp up again in 2019. How much money were they going to save really?

And now they have been reinstated at the notion of a TB. Seems like a win for the DPA IMHO.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 09:42
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Those line trainers have been treated with contempt. Stood down, not paid, but kept their trainers rating. Then, after the threat of DPA action, are called back to do the companyís dirty work. And boy did they jump to mothers call?

Is this not demeaning to the training pilots who have let themselves be treated like this? To then undermine their unions efforts by jumping through the companyís hoop when asked, is simply crass.

The analogy: like poodles being lead by their owners , through the cesspool. Then expected to sit up and beg at the end. Please have some respect for your colleagues and say no thanks, Iíll train in the future, but not now.
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