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HKAOS Membership update 3 Nov 18

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

HKAOS Membership update 3 Nov 18

Old 5th Nov 2018, 06:56
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 159
Originally Posted by illtellyouhowitis View Post
All that was good in the last TA, what are you smoking. If that TA had gone though, you think the company wouldn't have come after just about everything we have and we wouldn't have been able to fight back because your great TA said we couldn't fight back because of the wonderful clause written in it. So you wanted a little scap and thought that was good..You come across as someone who is happy with negotiating back something they took from us.
No offence here, but you’re an idiot. Any employment lawyer in HKG, not a bunch of pilots sitting around the plaza in DB stroking their di*ks, but a proper experienced employment contract lawyer or barrister will tell you in a roundabout way that large corporations in HKG have all the power. If CX want to come after the AOA for industrial disruption they will. The clause that got you all excited like schoolboys seeing t*ts for the first time was largely irrelevant.
But you felt good that you thought you’d stuck it to the company I suppose.
Plenty of current employment contract disputes and industrial action ongoing in HKG, have a look at the courts current interpretations.
BTW 7 years ago this week
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fede...101-1v197.html

First world labour laws apparently, QF pilots with a pretty valid legal case subsequently destroyed in court.
morningcoffee is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2018, 07:31
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 757
MorningCoffee, another fairly tepid management "hail mary" from you. Trying to suggest that leaving for Qantas isn't a great idea....yea, ok. At least those of us who are planning on leaving for QA can rest happy knowing we are living back home, and enjoying working for a company that is subject to a semblance of legal sobriety. Oh, and one more thing...you should know by now that nearly every Aussie under the age of 45 (and not a few over I might add) are already in the QA system, interviewing, confirming course dates and counting the days until we've left this most toxic of airlines behind us. But you keep at it my boy, take another one for the management team like the little cubicle dweller that you are.

(.. interviews sometime last month had 12 CX pilots there on the same day....but who's counting)
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2018, 07:48
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: hk
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post

No offence here, but you’re an idiot. Any employment lawyer in HKG, not a bunch of pilots sitting around the plaza in DB stroking their di*ks, but a proper experienced employment contract lawyer or barrister will tell you in a roundabout way that large corporations in HKG have all the power. If CX want to come after the AOA for industrial disruption they will. The clause that got you all excited like schoolboys seeing t*ts for the first time was largely irrelevant.
But you felt good that you thought you’d stuck it to the company I suppose.
Plenty of current employment contract disputes and industrial action ongoing in HKG, have a look at the courts current interpretations.
BTW 7 years ago this week
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fede...101-1v197.html

First world labour laws apparently, QF pilots with a pretty valid legal case subsequently destroyed in court.

MC, I must say with the greatest respect but you do come across as a guy who is scared of the dark, probably henpecked by your wife and incapable of seeing the wood for the trees.

May I sugest you harden the Fu3k up. You Sir, are pathetic.
illtellyouhowitis is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2018, 13:46
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Somewhere Smelly
Posts: 49
MC actually makes some very interesting points. The individuals truly in control of the airline group WILL have layers of planning in place for multiple contingencies. They will have both offensive and defensive game plans (we've largely seen the former so far due to the employees' lack of offense) and they will have hired some expensive, ruthless and talented help to make sure that they prevail and protect their cash. The problem with the Unions is that they're populated my emasculated amateurs (no offence!) most of whom are too exposed and/or scared and/or intimidated to do the necessary (part of the Swire plan of course) and who can blame them? Being reasonable humans, these amateurs are too easily seduced by 'good faith' etc. The unions play by gentlemanly rules but the company does not.

So...

The unions need to work together, pool resources and instruct professional negotiating and legal teams to battle on their behalf. Once the committees are one step removed then the level of threat against them is reduced. The company will resist this of course; it would much prefer to bully an employee directly.

The article is a lesson in history. Those that fail to remember the lessons are bound to repeat their mistakes. The company won't be that foolish so why should we?
Babbalito is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2018, 13:55
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: www
Posts: 530
Just finished having dinner with a good friend, a senior Captain. He would like to join training, but will not while the ban is in effect. These lowlifes that have taken the job now have usurped better people, who (at least in the case of my friend) are more senior and would get the position if applied for. I hope they choke on their extra pay, hope it is worth the career staining shame it will coat them with. Disgusting.
Apple Tree Yard is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 02:40
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 525
Originally Posted by Babbalito View Post
MC actually makes some very interesting points. The individuals truly in control of the airline group WILL have layers of planning in place for multiple contingencies. They will have both offensive and defensive game plans (we've largely seen the former so far due to the employees' lack of offense) and they will have hired some expensive, ruthless and talented help to make sure that they prevail and protect their cash. The problem with the Unions is that they're populated my emasculated amateurs (no offence!) most of whom are too exposed and/or scared and/or intimidated to do the necessary (part of the Swire plan of course) and who can blame them? Being reasonable humans, these amateurs are too easily seduced by 'good faith' etc. The unions play by gentlemanly rules but the company does not.

So...

The unions need to work together, pool resources and instruct professional negotiating and legal teams to battle on their behalf. Once the committees are one step removed then the level of threat against them is reduced. The company will resist this of course; it would much prefer to bully an employee directly.

The article is a lesson in history. Those that fail to remember the lessons are bound to repeat their mistakes. The company won't be that foolish so why should we?
What we need is a team of professional negotiators. You provide them with a brief then stand back and let them loose. Give them 7 days and they report back with an offer to accept or a strike vote to take. Simples.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 02:50
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 402
Not so, simples.

The company doesn't have to negotiate with anyone, let alone a third party. Been there, done that.
OK4Wire is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 03:41
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: HK
Posts: 62
I hate to say it, but MC is correct. That clause that had everyone so worked up was a placebo for the company. That, and all the "negatives" of the previous deal had zero real impact on what we could or could not do.
rhoshamboe is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 03:58
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 525
Originally Posted by OK4Wire View Post
Not so, simples.

The company doesn't have to negotiate with anyone, let alone a third party. Been there, done that.
Been there done that NEVER has been tried. Years ago the AOA did try to have it's general secretary sit in on negotiations and the company walked out because they had not been informed in advance, which was correct procedure. Labour laws ( such as they are in HKG ) now encourage third party ( professional ) negotiators to represent workers groups. Ironically this law was introduced by Beijing. CX cannot refuse to negotiate with elected representatives or their nominees. There are numerous UK and USA based negotiating firms, manilylinked to huge unions like Unite and The Teamsters. For a fee they gather the information, listen to the clients aspirations, formulate a strategy, negotiate a deal and hand the offer back to the members to accept or not. Job done in 7 days. Do you really think the likes of the JellyFish and Boss Hogg think their own strategies out ? Why all the adjournments during the negotiations ? It's so they can consult with their team of suits sitting in back rooms.
FFS wake up and treat your careers seriously.
And by the way the FAU does exactly this, employs professional strategists, not wet behind the ear, amateurs like the HKAOA GC.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 04:04
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 580
Usurped better people ?

Originally Posted by Apple Tree Yard View Post
Just finished having dinner with a good friend, a senior Captain. He would like to join training, but will not while the ban is in effect. These lowlifes that have taken the job now have usurped better people, who (at least in the case of my friend) are more senior and would get the position if applied for. I hope they choke on their extra pay, hope it is worth the career staining shame it will coat them with. Disgusting.
Sorry ATY however here is the truth.... CX walked away from "better people" many years back. The days of a Meritocracy at CX are dead and you only have to look at the past 15 years of loosing lawsuits, lawsuit payouts, Fuel hedging, etc etc etc with the latest being what you have read in the SCMP every day for a week now. Do they have the "best" in charge of our IT dept or another Swire Prince from some pompous UK university with a Masters Degree geology or pollywog genetics ???

And if you think Merlin the Magician will fix this; we now have an Inclusion and Diversity dept with most everybody receiving Unconscious Bias and diversity training.

#YouDecide

Last edited by Flex88; 6th Nov 2018 at 04:16.
Flex88 is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2018, 05:27
  #31 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 38
I'm surprised the Chairman's latest letter to the Company hasn't drawn more comment. DS seeks to admonish the GMA for DEFOs onto the 777. DS makes all the good arguments, but finishes with "please don't do it again". No doubt this letter is followed up with a phone call asking for less lube on the next shafting.

Management clearly has no respect for the HKAOA. They are now doing as they please, safe in the knowledge that the response will be a limp letter. All the non-union representation guff in COS18 and "peace" clauses just formalise the sad demise of the HKAOA.

The new GC has only days to turn this around before it's all to late. Time to grow a pair lads, stop the rot, STOP NEGOTIATING. START BEHAVING LIKE A TRADE UNION.
Liam Gallagher is offline  

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