Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

People Thinking Of Going CX

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

People Thinking Of Going CX

Old 16th Oct 2018, 10:08
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: The Pointy End
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
Yes the training cost that companies for years have paid and had way too many pilots burn them without "HONOUR" of meeting the agreement for such training and leave soon after.

I know guys that got into CX in early 90's get the 747 not like Hong Hong then try commute then just leave and apply Qantas within the first year.

No wonder company's want to skip that training - if they did not get burnt so often they would be happy to train.

What is the latest - we will transfer your training bond!

And you guys all think that's fine? - it is nothing but self interest.
Do I think itís fine? No. Do I think itís a risk that business needs to take? Yes.

Now Iíll admit Iím not 100% certain but I donít think there is another industry where you have to pay for your own training for a specific company. Whether itís bus drivers or astronauts, I canít imagine them being held to a bond.

If CX was being used as a training ground for QF then they need to compete in another way rather than try to force applicants to pay for the Ďpleasureí of flying their metal.
DrongoDriver is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 12:07
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Tent
Posts: 748
Originally Posted by DrongoDriver View Post


Do I think itís fine? No. Do I think itís a risk that business needs to take? Yes.

Now Iíll admit Iím not 100% certain but I donít think there is another industry where you have to pay for your own training for a specific company. Whether itís bus drivers or astronauts, I canít imagine them being held to a bond.

If CX was being used as a training ground for QF then they need to compete in another way rather than try to force applicants to pay for the Ďpleasureí of flying their metal.
Is a 747, 380, 767, training (rating) only valid for a specific company?

If not - then that may be a solution!!

Most other industries don't have seniority and they then train people that stay for bond periods
Bend alot is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 13:44
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 99
If a company tries to "restrain" you from leaving with restrictive contracts, then that should say everything about the company and what its offering. It certainly says everything about Cathay Pacific. If you have any pride, any self-worth, any desire to actually enjoy your job and have a productive career, run away from here as fast as you can. CX is finished.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 13:53
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 267
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
If a company tries to "restrain" you from leaving with restrictive contracts, then that should say everything about the company and what its offering. It certainly says everything about Cathay Pacific. If you have any pride, any self-worth, any desire to actually enjoy your job and have a productive career, run away from here as fast as you can. CX is finished.
Exactly.

And such restraints are notoriously difficult (often impossible) to enforce anyway. The only 'effective' way to 'enforce' them is either have money in escrow (in an account in the home country of the company) OR do what most reputable companies do. Rather than trying to punish and restrain, they have a bonus or incentive for staying. Incentives work great. People generally use their efforts to seek the carrot, and find creative ways to avoid the stick. So you either have their effort and talent working for you in seeking the carrot, or have their effort and talent working against you in avoiding the stick.
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 14:49
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 318
Restraint

The restraint is seniority, every day that passes it holds a little firmer. Meaning you'll accept more shit.

And worse still it repels at a new airline the longer you stay away. Meaning you'll join at any cost to begin with.

And airlines that can get away with it use seniority to destroy the career.
Avinthenews is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 23:22
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Tent
Posts: 748
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
If a company tries to "restrain" you from leaving with restrictive contracts, then that should say everything about the company and what its offering. It certainly says everything about Cathay Pacific. If you have any pride, any self-worth, any desire to actually enjoy your job and have a productive career, run away from here as fast as you can. CX is finished.
Many many years ago companies supplied the expensive training with no strings attached - too many pilots took advantage of this training to get a type endorsement, from a airline that they had no intention of making a career at. Many of these pilots as soon as their licence was updated, so was the CV and sent to the airlines that they did wish to have a career at.

This practice became so common that something needed to be done, I expect the airlines after being shafted by pilots, did not consider offering bonuses to pilots who had stayed for a reasonable amount of time.

This is not just an issue for CX but it is a reason that restrain methods are used, they would use a term like "insurance on investment clause".

The Seniority I expect plays a big part in pilots jumping ship soon after being trained on a jet, to work for an airline they want to have a career. That is so they can be more senior sooner, and that is a individual benefit and that seems to outweigh any contractual or handshake agreements made.

I expect that many airlines will be watching CX and see what they will actually get away with. The other airlines can bring in pilots on lower base pays than current but top them up with nice carrots, once seniority creeps in the carrots dry up (13th pay cheque example) then it is do I say I'am only 18 months from an upgrade? The people more senior than you won't support you they are on a different pay structure to you.

The company then works on an other pay structure with enough carrots to bring in the next round with base pay and conditions eroded again, but enough to get that seniority clock coming into play.

Will CX's newest pay and conditions be enough that too many will turn the back on seniority that they will need to up the carrot offered? Seems not yet.

But the rest of the World is not as expensive to live, has bigger than shoe boxes and breathable air - this airlines outside Hong Hong can use to go that bit lower.
Bend alot is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 01:50
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 31
Work permits & immigration policy come into it as well. There aren't that many airlines with ability to hire without regard to that. So an airline in the US can't use that (cost of living/ air) to go lower than CX, because they don't have the ability to hire non US/ green card pilots from CX.
Freehills is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 01:55
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 267
Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post

I expect that many airlines will be watching CX and see what they will actually get away with. The other airlines can bring in pilots on lower base pays than current but top them up with nice carrots, once seniority creeps in the carrots dry up (13th pay cheque example) then it is do I say I'am only 18 months from an upgrade? The people more senior than you won't support you they are on a different pay structure to you.

.
The ones who want to fail certainly will. But nobody else will--they'll more be looking at it on a lesson of what NOT to do (and will do everything they can to learn from CXs mistakes--and not go down the same path). How to take a profitable and prestigious company (with a proud and capable workforce of great qualifications) and run it into the ground. And completely alienate and divide the workforce. Dissatisfied, disgruntled, apathetic, and divided workforces who might feel the only reason they're there is they're trapped by seniority (and/or nowhere else to go) are REALLY REALLY unproductive and expensive. With "Paycheck jobs" ya get the minimum of just about everything.

Have a look at the posts of those individuals who've left. And how happy they are. THIS is the key. Happy people move heaven and earth to get the job done.

The guy from 'office space' could give these folks a few pointers.

There ARE companies who see what a competitor can 'get away with' by using the stick. And then along comes an incentive based competitor (who actually keeps their promises, has integrity, and promotes teamwork with personal value) and eats them for lunch. The Herb Kelleher approach. People WANT to be at work, and love what they do (granted there might have been SOME straying after he left, but all corporations have lifecycles--and even in the post Herb world folks who've left CX for SWA are lovin' it; at least the ones I know of). People aren't cringing on the way in, they're smiling on the drive over.

THAT'S the way to run an airline.
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 03:40
  #69 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: hong kong
Posts: 0
Wow look at this discussion about CX.... should make every person who is considering of coming wonder??

As I said everyone has a decision but I would recommend people to do research about everything before coming to CX and living in HK.
Don't get caught up with the money - because its actually not that much and people are living paycheque to paycheque here. I mean yes you can make sacrifices to save some money. Like us SO's do - we drink outside the 7/11 stores on a night out which is great fun but its more got to do with the fact the entertainment is just to expensive in HK. - LIFE is very very expensive in HK.

Lots of people get into debt as they join here, because you really do need money to move to HK. The little amount you get on Loan from the company is not enough. TRUST ME. But you probably are thinking, I will just sell what I have at home to set myself up - I did this. BIG MISTAKE. You selling your life to start a very average and frustrating one in HK. ITS NOT WORTH IT.

For me and believe many SO's the fact that CX has treated us like bottom feeders, and just delayed and delayed our upgrades has frustrated us as a group and is the reason we all will be looking elsewhere for employment.
But before SO's look to leave we will be claiming all our bonuses, taking our maximum sick days, long term sickness included. Not answering our phones on Days Off (even when CC is finished), doing the absolute minimum work we can do - because why should we kill ourselves for a company that is maliciously ending our career before it has started.

The company has lost all good faith from most of the pilots and management know this!!!
I mean for CADETS who I know personally to say they will leave if they can, or take as much sick leave as possible, or long term or honestly don't give a £@$% about this company that says a lot...... and this is happening.

Im not telling anyone who is interested in CX not to come - please don't think that, BUT im painting an honest picture of life here.
Forget about upgrades for 5+ years as SO's, DEFO's forget about ever getting command because you are all the way at the bottom of the list, thats the reality of it. You will leave before your command is anywhere close.

Think Carefully and be smart - don't make the same mistake that most of us in this company has made!!!!

A Shoutout to all airlines across the world - you have many many experienced and eager Second Officers in CX that are dying to leave.

We have type experience and we understand the long haul industry. Give us a chance and accept some of our SO hours and you will have no more pilot shortage for years to come. Open up you doors and we WILL come. TRUST ME.....
lessonlearnt is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 04:40
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Tent
Posts: 748
E3 visas in the USA and Allan has just been approved to get a few expat pilots with a path way to PR in Australia.

That opens the door in USA and Australia.

Many comments about CX management mirror what is said about Allan Joyce - if you think Qantas made a profit recently think again, that was all smoke and mirrors. He also thinks the current pilots are paid too much.

It seems that unit cost is the main thing they teach in CEO school these days.
Bend alot is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 07:18
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,200
Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
E3 visas in the USA and Allan has just been approved to get a few expat pilots with a path way to PR in Australia.

That opens the door in USA and Australia.

Many comments about CX management mirror what is said about Allan Joyce - if you think Qantas made a profit recently think again, that was all smoke and mirrors. He also thinks the current pilots are paid too much.

It seems that unit cost is the main thing they teach in CEO school these days.
Be under no illusion the only plus in Qantas is you live in Australia. The pilots were sold out by their union and then ratified effectively a B scale on the 787 which within ten years will apply to all long haul aircraft. No overtime, no night credits for 4 man crew and a squirrel cage bidding system. To earn similar money to what I get on the 747 you will do approx 20 more stick hours a month.
dragon man is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 07:35
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Tent
Posts: 748
dragon man - that is a very big plus for the family of a pilot.

For that many will sacrifice even more conditions and soon the C scale exists - this will probably be B scale minus many favourable conditions + many unfavourable conditions but with the carrot on a hook to poach trained folk from other airlines (by way of signing bonus) that are recently trained but not very senior.

A shyt job with average pay and poor conditions in a cheap non polluted country, trumps the same shyt job with average pay and conditions in an expensive and polluted country every time.
Bend alot is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 07:51
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,200
Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
dragon man - that is a very big plus for the family of a pilot.

For that many will sacrifice even more conditions and soon the C scale exists - this will probably be B scale minus many favourable conditions + many unfavourable conditions but with the carrot on a hook to poach trained folk from other airlines (by way of signing bonus) that are recently trained but not very senior.

A shyt job with average pay and poor conditions in a cheap non polluted country, trumps the same shyt job with average pay and conditions in an expensive and polluted country every time.
I agree, however you need to be aware that if you are Sydney based its not cheap, secondly with bases on the 737 in most capital cities there are many day trips with long drives to affordable housing, for some flight attendants 2 1/2 hours driving a day in Sydney plus $20 in tolls is not unusual. Because of the demise of seniority based bidding commuting is a lot harder and family and partner career balance a lot more difficult to achieve. Lastly, superannuation was C scaled about 15 years ago, if you are lucky and wise enough to avoid divorce to have reasonable super will entail flying till 65/70.
dragon man is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 13:32
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Somewhere Smelly
Posts: 46
A common theme

"The pilots were sold out by their union..."

trade union
noun
  1. an organized association of workers in a profession formed to protect and further their rights and interests.
Simple really but most pilots in the group are too dumb and/or selfish and/or weak to act collectively and effectively.
Babbalito is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 13:46
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Tent
Posts: 748
Originally Posted by Babbalito View Post
"The pilots were sold out by their union..."

trade union
noun
  1. an organized association of workers in a profession formed to protect and further their rights and interests.
Simple really but most pilots in the group are too dumb and/or selfish and/or weak to act collectively and effectively.
You use too many words - seniority cancels "rights and interests" of an association of workers - it is each for their own best interest.

So never can be organised by a union.
Bend alot is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 15:14
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 267
Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
You use too many words - seniority cancels "rights and interests" of an association of workers - it is each for their own best interest.

So never can be organised by a union.
The strongest motivating force I have seen in my life -- ever -- is when a person feels a sense of duty toward a group of his colleagues (for whatever task). This does demand leadership and an environment where it can happen.

This force transcends just about everything. Fear, self-interest, money, food, water, you name it.

But it is sometimes difficult to attain that leadership and culture.
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 15:47
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Nippi
Posts: 238
Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
You use too many words - seniority cancels "rights and interests" of an association of workers - it is each for their own best interest.

So never can be organised by a union.
WRONG!!
Get some backbone and fight. No one gets anything for free.
DropKnee is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2018, 03:25
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Tent
Posts: 748
So how much fight is there for a 30 years of service senior captain with a wife and 2 kids?

While stuck in Hong Hong in deteriorating conditions he will still be on a high salary (minus the 13th I hear) and have pretty good accommodation and education I believe and the best pick of the roster.

Now after 30 years where can this guy go?

Even a direct entry captain will have lower pay (yes overall) but the loss of seniority and the shyty shifts you are given takes the life out of your twilight years of employment, that quality family time at the good holiday periods is gone. Forget holidays for kids summer vacations or any school holidays.

Every 30 year senior would have been against the B scale introduction and a negative look at the pilots that took the B scale jobs with reduced pay and conditions, but the trend on job scales continues.

So we have A scale that can not really go any place unless they want to try a new venture or retire.
We have B scale that are happy if A scale leave or assist them for a better package for them. But they are starting to get some senior benefits and not happy the new C scale are making it hard for the B's to get a better package.

Then we have the C scale that many will happily flow thru the system for a few years to get "paid training" on the jets.

By the time the A's have retired many of the B's will be in the current A's position.

Dropknee - I am not a pilot but do work in the industry. I am currently a member of 2 unions and actively trying to "maintain" and then increase our pay and conditions, our employer is hell bent on reducing our conditions by lots and in return a increase far less than inflationary pay increase. The work we have done in informing the staff of what is happening to them is massive, but they are starting to get united in rejecting the offer given to us.
Bend alot is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2018, 03:26
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Babbalito View Post
"The pilots were sold out by their union..."

trade union
noun
  1. an organized association of workers in a profession formed to protect and further their rights and interests.
Simple really but most pilots in the group are too dumb and/or selfish and/or weak to act collectively and effectively.
A REAL profession controls entry into it. For example the legal profession retsricts the number of solicitors/lawyers and barristers qualifying each year. The medical profession decides how many doctors are admitted. Pilots count themselves as a profession BUT entry into this market is controlled by the employers. So, by the law of diminishing returns, the more pilots you have the lower the unit cost ( salary ). Simple.

The demise of the airline pilot as a profession has been planned and orchestrated by both airlines and manufacturers. After WW2 to fly an aircraft across the pacific required the minimum of a captain, co-pilot, navigator, wireless operator and engineer .By the 1960's Airbus had designed the A320 to be pilot less but public opinion was not ready for that so the side stick was added. The Gemini and Apollo space programmes were initially designed to have passengers not pilots trained as astronauts. By the early 2000's drone technology was being applied to the military and today the RAF has announced the F35 will be the last manned fighter they use. Technology driven by airlines and manufacturers has been developed to eliminate the source of human error. The pilot. This has happened before. In 1920 The Flying Scotsman was THE cutting edge mode of rail transportation. The fastest and most technically advanced train in the world. It required a driver (who was held in high asteem in society) co-driver, engineer, two coal stokers and at least one guard. By 1960, the diesel train was operated by one man, holding a deadmans handle with no status in society save a union protected wage ( note I say wage. Professionals receive salaries. Workers a wage ). In 1945 if you asked any young boy what he wanted to be he might answer a pilot, astronaut, fireman, train driver. By 2018 the answer is celebrity TV presenter, twitter star or Xfactor winner. Times have changed. So airlines and manufacturers who still haven't convinced the travelling public that pilot less planes are the future and need bodies to occupy control seats are turning to other sources. The short term answer seems to be women pilots. Once left out of this profession by design they are now being welcomed and encouraged (AND RIGHTLY SO, LONG OVERDUE ) but this is only to fill a gap that cannot be filled from traditional sources until the first freighters become unmanned. Honeywell are flying a DC10 freighter around fully automated. Howe long before FedEx or UPS take the plunge and announce unmanned freighters flown like drones from bunkers in the desert ? I give it 10-20 years. Then it is only a matter of time before pilot less passengers planes take to the sky and within 50 years the pilot will be flightless, just like the DoDo.
Today CX is taking that first step. It needs bodies to sit in seats and press buttons. It doesn't need jet jockies, prima donas, or natural pilots. It doesn't need "the right stuff" it needs bums to fill seats and as cheaply as possible. Hence COS18 the beginning of the end. And every airline in the world is watching. If CX get away with it then why would UPS and Delta go the opposite way. They will watch and learn then attack. Make the most of it while you can. This profession is extinct.

Last edited by unitedabx; 18th Oct 2018 at 03:59.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2018, 04:03
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: nfa
Posts: 129
Except the market is not driven by its size, its driven by supply and demand.

During an age when you actually needed to be a pilot to hold a cockpit job, skills were rewarded. Modern aircraft have never been safer and the Accountants have realized that they essentially fly themselves. Widebody international flying was once limited to experienced, skilled aviators. Now it's full of newbie, low time kids willing to work for peanuts - essentially what they're worth. Only after events like AF or German Wings, does the public question who is actually in the seat. At the end of the day, until they're afraid for their own well being, the driving force is the price of a ticket. So far, none of the long list of 'errors' has cost CX a serious accident. If/when it does, maybe then things will change.
bm330 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.