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People Thinking Of Going CX

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

People Thinking Of Going CX

Old 14th Oct 2018, 23:05
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: planet ****witt
Age: 34
Posts: 38
The forums are filled with people who are happy to tell others how bad it is at Cathay. What a piece of sh#t Cos18 is. And how far the mighty have fallen. I won't disagree that things are bad here. In my limited time it has gotten worse never better. The policies continually morph with more focus on intimidation than welfare. Which would never be legal in first world countries.

What I don't hear is what are you going to do about it? The only answer seems to be leave. But what if everyone one of you banded together and said enough. NO to COS18, NO to the intimidation policies, NO More. Are you willing to do something about?. Have a look in the mirror and ask if you are just along for the ride only worrying about what is good for you. Or are you willing to stand up and say enough?
reazasassain is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 23:42
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Hong kong
Posts: 100
reazasassain

finally someone has hit the nail on the head , Sadly this Union is made up of people too gutless to walk out , I only have a few years left so I really don’t care if I go now or in a couple of years . However I was more than ready to walk in 99 and I would go out in a heartbeat now if everyone else was prepared to stand together . The problem is that there are any number of pilots willing to break ranks and walk over you in order to promote their own agenda . So unless we as a group are ready to take any measures necessary to prevent scabs , very little will be achieved which is why people are leaving . The AOA is an absolute waste of time and has been for years . But a Union is only ever as good as the weakest link .
if everyone walked the airline would be shut down for 7-10 days max until the shareholders started demanding solutions . No one should be allowed back until all,our demands are met . But I don’t think there are enough pilots with strong enough spines to achieve that goal
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 00:53
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 601
Ya Better Ask !!!

If you're thinking of joining - the COS18 info given above is a typical glossed over parlour trick...

ASK QUESTIONS !!!!

How much does schooling cost for children (ESF etc)

What are my medical benefits AND what are the limits ?

What is the Dental Coverage and what does it cover ??

Are my annual travel tickets (FOC) for my family and myself to travel home "Confirmed NOSUB" ???

If you don't ask, don't even think of bitching about it at a later date.. You own it.
Flex88 is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2018, 01:27
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by Porterboy View Post
No kidding! I'll have to polish up that resume.
Porterboy, being a Canadian myself, I can understand how working 14 hours a day on some 703/704/705 gig at a salary similar to someone at Tim Hortons can be a major motivator to leave the country. But honestly, because you are always working so hard, there are better options that would open overtime, and I would say just hang tight. At the end of the day, you still got clean air, no overpopulated streets, and housing prices that are still significantly less with more value than anything HK has to offer. Also, if you do decide to leave, donít do it just because some operator out there is brandishing a higher pay check either, because there is typically a good reason why.
MrAndy is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2018, 07:30
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Sydney
Posts: 13
I left earlier this year as an SO. I completely agree with lesson learnt and the other posts on here. Prior to my interview a couple of years ago I did the standard searches such as "working for CX" and "What it's like to live in Hong Kong" and the writing was on the wall there I just would not believe it.

To add to this when I was at the gate prior to attending my second interview I got chatting to someone who was an FO on the 777. His exact words were "this is not a happy company, it isn't good at all like it used to be and I would recommend you spend your time working for a regional carrier as an FO". So anyway I came anyway because there weren't any other options at the time, maybe he was just an unhappy employee, and I guess I didn't want to believe it.

So now I am back in my home country in Australia. The dark circles under my eyes from the fatigue of working there and living in Hong Kong are gone. The toxicity is obviously gone and I actually get to fly an airplane again. I get less days off (more leave) and less money yet I feel much more awake and healthy than I ever did in Hong Kong and this going back to a turbo-prop aircraft. I also don't get sweaty balls 5 minutes after leaving my apartment to go to work which is also a bonus you take for granted in your home country! Not hearing the word cannot on a daily basis is also a blessing in the skies.

With regards to living costs I was paying close to 20K per month and sharing with other people. That is 40% of the 1st year monthly SO salary on COS08. A simple google search rule of thumb is 30% so I just "cannot" imagine how it would be doable on POS08 in the long term especially if you have a family or anything like that. Good luck to everyone.

Cheers,
CxEx2 is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2018, 10:42
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Mombasa
Posts: 9
@Porterboy

Apply, get a free holiday out of it, an hour in the SIM for free (777 or 747) and get some great experience of what is required of you at an interview so when you apply to Qlink or elsewhere, you have that extra advantage 👍
Summit to Sea is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2018, 15:51
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by Summit to Sea View Post
@Porterboy

Apply, get a free holiday out of it, an hour in the SIM for free (777 or 747) and get some great experience of what is required of you at an interview so when you apply to Qlink or elsewhere, you have that extra advantage ��

I have a few friends in South Africa that had tickets booked for the interview in HK. COS18 came out, word went around and they all canceled their interviews. Even the desperate pilots are not willing to take those chances on such a degraded package. Well done #CXit

Last edited by AdB29; 15th Oct 2018 at 15:52. Reason: .
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 00:13
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,120
Originally Posted by Flex88 View Post
If you're thinking of joining - the COS18 info given above is a typical glossed over parlour trick...

ASK QUESTIONS !!!!

How much does schooling cost for children (ESF etc)

What are my medical benefits AND what are the limits ?

What is the Dental Coverage and what does it cover ??

Are my annual travel tickets (FOC) for my family and myself to travel home "Confirmed NOSUB" ???

If you don't ask, don't even think of bitching about it at a later date.. You own it.
also ask how much is the company paying towards my provident fund? The answer is ZERO!
Frogman1484 is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 00:49
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Frogman1484 View Post


also ask how much is the company paying towards my provident fund? The answer is ZERO!
Prospective airline pilots MUST do their research. Career prospects, actual flying, benefits, remuneration must all be considered carefully. Please don't hang onto fairy stories you mother or father told you about the good old days when CX ruled the clouds. That fairytale is now a nightmare.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 01:09
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: The Pointy End
Posts: 32
Firstly let me just admit my massive bias for the following.

Porterboy, Iím sure coming to Qlink would be a lot better than SO at CX but youíre also going to be taking jobs away from local Aussies who get out of GA by getting into Qlink and other regionals.

This new international pathway is just a way to avoid training costs. There is no pilot shortage in Aus. There are a metric ton of guys flying bugsmashers in GA and hoping for a leg up into a regional. Those positions are now getting filled with international applicants whilst the locals get shafted.

By by all means head to a country with no GA industry and live the expat life. But donít over those beginning in the industry either. We all started somewhere and this new trend of bringing in the least costly candidate hurts everyone. I mean just look at CX!
DrongoDriver is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 01:42
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by DrongoDriver View Post
Firstly let me just admit my massive bias for the following.

Porterboy, Iím sure coming to Qlink would be a lot better than SO at CX but youíre also going to be taking jobs away from local Aussies who get out of GA by getting into Qlink and other regionals.

This new international pathway is just a way to avoid training costs. There is no pilot shortage in Aus. There are a metric ton of guys flying bugsmashers in GA and hoping for a leg up into a regional. Those positions are now getting filled with international applicants whilst the locals get shafted.

By by all means head to a country with no GA industry and live the expat life. But donít over those beginning in the industry either. We all started somewhere and this new trend of bringing in the least costly candidate hurts everyone. I mean just look at CX!
I totally understand where you're coming from and that's why I said this earlier in the thread..
Originally Posted by Porterboy View Post
[...] I thought about doing the Qantaslink thing on the Dash 8, but I get the impression that foreign pilots are really not appreciated there, and I can sort of see why. [...]
I know I'd be going in and taking people's jobs which is why I'm hesitant to apply. But after I wrote that post I received a couple PM's painting a different picture so I don't know how to really feel about this. At the end of the day, I spent over $100k on training and my intent is to go somewhere that will pay me enough for me to feel like that was a worthy investment and at the same time permit me to have a decent quality of life. So far the options are very limited and it feels like the list is shrinking by the minute! Tell me you wouldn't at the very least consider Qlink if you were doing the exact same job for less than half of the pay being offered by them. It's tempting that's all I'm saying.
Porterboy is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 01:43
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 601
Originally Posted by Porterboy View Post
What's sad is that even with this new COS18, I'd be better off, at least financially at Cathay compared to AC, Westjet, Transat, etc. Everything is rock bottom here. It's extremely frustrating since our neighbours to the south are making six figures within two years of being an FO!! I wish we could get green cards as pilots

I realize that if I don't apply to Cathay, Emirates, etc. I'm contributing to possibly increasing wages for you guys, but the same goes for here at home. If all the Canadian pilots bugger off to other countries, maybe wages might go up here in this freezing country. I'm quite conflicted!

Guess it all comes down to the lifestyle at the end of the day. Just wish I knew who could offer that in today's job market. Working 14 hour days for 56k a year in the most expensive cities in Canada and giving half of it to Mr. Trudeau sounds terrible, but so does making decent money but having to deal with awful/incompetent managers and breathing in polluted air while living in a shoe-box until an upgrade to Captain a decade later..
Captain a decade later - I think you're being WAY optimistic.... Oh and by the way, on the new COS, Captains will only be able to afford a shoe box as well.
Flex88 is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 01:46
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by Flex88 View Post
Captain a decade later - I think you're being WAY optimistic.... Oh and by the way, on the new COS, Captains will only be able to afford a shoe box as well.
Don't even have to mention it Flex...
Originally Posted by Porterboy View Post
I think Iíve been sufficiently turned off from applying to CX. This is sad.
(posted earlier in thread)...
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 02:08
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 26
As others may have mentioned before, the money is a very small part of the equation.

Do not deprive yourself of the experience and fun of paying your dues. If I look back on my 25+ years of flying I can tell you that many of the best times were had when I was making the least amount of money.

The money will come, and if you are like 90% of the pilots out there you will have the same amount of money left over each month whether you're making 1k, 10k or 100k
CX ex is online now  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 02:30
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: The Pointy End
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by Porterboy View Post
I totally understand where you're coming from and that's why I said this earlier in the thread..

I know I'd be going in and taking people's jobs which is why I'm hesitant to apply. But after I wrote that post I received a couple PM's painting a different picture so I don't know how to really feel about this. At the end of the day, I spent over $100k on training and my intent is to go somewhere that will pay me enough for me to feel like that was a worthy investment and at the same time permit me to have a decent quality of life. So far the options are very limited and it feels like the list is shrinking by the minute! Tell me you wouldn't at the very least consider Qlink if you were doing the exact same job for less than half of the pay being offered by them. It's tempting that's all I'm saying.
I totally understand your point and am sure it will be a great career move for you but youíll be ďprovingĒ the strategy that so many CEO/CFOs have used to wreck legacy airlines.

There are two case studies (that I can think of right now) of this happening in Aus already:
1. Seaplanes. Even though minimums have gone down for almost every low hour job (one of our hangar rats just got a night IFR job with 250TT), most seaplane jobs down here still require 25k hours with 17 million water landings and 10 hours in the space shuttle. Why? So they can then turn around and say ďwe canít find qualified candidates here so can we hire guys from overseas?Ē. Itís quite common to be in a seaplane doing a scenic over Sydney harbour and hearing a Canadian/American voice from up front. As such there are almost no junior seaplane pilots anymore.
2. Parachuting. Not so much the jump pilots but the instructors and tandem masters, the money makers. 10+ years ago there used to be 5 clubs per major city doing drops and teaching instructors/tandem masters. Now that a certain million dollar corporation have come in and use foreign tandem masters, thereís no need for those clubs. So from 5-6 planes needing 5-6 jump pilots, we now have 1-2 planes needing 1-2 jump pilots.

From your previous post I believe youíre Canadian? If so Iím guessing you went through (or are still going through) the hard yards in their GA industry too. I reckon youíd be pretty ticked off if Aussies started coming over and taking all the 1900/King Air/Caravan/Dash jobs leaving all the Canadians stuck on old Never-gos and the like.

If I were you Iíd head to Sunwings or a LCC in Europe (where theyíve already killed their GA industry), get a command + few thousand hours on a 737/320 then go after a lucrative commuting contract in mainland China.

Donít get me wrong, Iíve had the pleasure to fly with some foreign crews and theyíve all been top notch. I just donít agree with them taking full time jobs until all the local boys have filled those positions (without having to adher to fairytale minimums).
DrongoDriver is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 04:43
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by DrongoDriver View Post
From your previous post I believe youíre Canadian? If so Iím guessing you went through (or are still going through) the hard yards in their GA industry too. I reckon youíd be pretty ticked off if Aussies started coming over and taking all the 1900/King Air/Caravan/Dash jobs leaving all the Canadians stuck on old Never-gos and the like.
Already happening here too. I have no idea how they manage to entice foreigners to come fly here. If you think COS18 at Cathay is bad, check out what's on offer here. But yes, I get it, and I'm most likely not going to apply for the reasons you stated. It just wouldn't feel right. Maybe instead of fleeing I should just try and find a way I can help fight for better conditions here at home so the next generation doesn't have to put up with what we do right now. Emirates is crap, Cathay is now crap, and I couldn't put up with the other places (China, Qatar, etc). I guess I really don't have a choice.
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 05:28
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Weltschmerz-By-The-Sea, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 855
Originally Posted by DrongoDriver View Post


I totally understand your point and am sure it will be a great career move for you but youíll be ďprovingĒ the strategy that so many CEO/CFOs have used to wreck legacy airlines.

There are two case studies (that I can think of right now) of this happening in Aus already:
1. Seaplanes. Even though minimums have gone down for almost every low hour job (one of our hangar rats just got a night IFR job with 250TT), most seaplane jobs down here still require 25k hours with 17 million water landings and 10 hours in the space shuttle. Why? So they can then turn around and say ďwe canít find qualified candidates here so can we hire guys from overseas?Ē. Itís quite common to be in a seaplane doing a scenic over Sydney harbour and hearing a Canadian/American voice from up front. As such there are almost no junior seaplane pilots anymore.
2. Parachuting. Not so much the jump pilots but the instructors and tandem masters, the money makers. 10+ years ago there used to be 5 clubs per major city doing drops and teaching instructors/tandem masters. Now that a certain million dollar corporation have come in and use foreign tandem masters, thereís no need for those clubs. So from 5-6 planes needing 5-6 jump pilots, we now have 1-2 planes needing 1-2 jump pilots.

From your previous post I believe youíre Canadian? If so Iím guessing you went through (or are still going through) the hard yards in their GA industry too. I reckon youíd be pretty ticked off if Aussies started coming over and taking all the 1900/King Air/Caravan/Dash jobs leaving all the Canadians stuck on old Never-gos and the like.

If I were you Iíd head to Sunwings or a LCC in Europe (where theyíve already killed their GA industry), get a command + few thousand hours on a 737/320 then go after a lucrative commuting contract in mainland China.

Donít get me wrong, Iíve had the pleasure to fly with some foreign crews and theyíve all been top notch. I just donít agree with them taking full time jobs until all the local boys have filled those positions (without having to adher to fairytale minimums).
One small problem with that. Two, actually:

Foreign pilots get paid the same as every other DHC-8 pilot, so your assertion that foreigners are a ploy to keep wages low is faulty.

How many Australian pilots are flying in the US on E-3 visas? Any move to bring them all home to protect American jobs?

Australopithecus is online now  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 06:00
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 833
Originally Posted by Porterboy View Post
Already happening here too. I have no idea how they manage to entice foreigners to come fly here. If you think COS18 at Cathay is bad, check out what's on offer here. But yes, I get it, and I'm most likely not going to apply for the reasons you stated. It just wouldn't feel right. Maybe instead of fleeing I should just try and find a way I can help fight for better conditions here at home so the next generation doesn't have to put up with what we do right now. Emirates is crap, Cathay is now crap, and I couldn't put up with the other places (China, Qatar, etc). I guess I really don't have a choice.
Porterboy, with all due respect, I believe you are missing the bigger point. Getting on the "aviation ladder" in Canada, or most places for that matter, is difficult and requires a lot of hard work, usually involving low paying jobs in not so nice places. Most of us have had to do that (including me). There seems to be a mindset that somehow it should all come easily. It doesn't.

That is why pilots at established airlines, most of who had to suffer their apprenticeships to reach the now "cushy" airline job become very upset when someone announces they are willing to come and work on "lower pay and benefits" than what is presently established, thereby putting pressure in a downward direction on those same pay and benefits. Because CX can hire from anywhere (and believe me, they are about to hire from "anywhere" !!), they can constantly threaten to supplant you with pilots from much lower standard of living regions, who would be happy to work for the lower pay and benefits (COS 18).

If you accept a job here on those terms, you not only do yourself a disservice, but certainly will be doing a disservice to those already here who are fighting tooth and nail to maintain any remaining value in their careers. Everyone needs to fight their battles, and it probably is not unfair to suggest that fighting it in Canada will ultimately benefit everyone there. Sincerely, I wish you luck and hope you can understand the position i'm explaining.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 06:56
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Somewhere Smelly
Posts: 47
Tooth and nail?

Seriously?

There is no fight at CX or KA.
The unions did nothing to stop the demise of expat terms in either company.. They are doing nothing to stop COS18. It is disgraceful that we don't protect our future colleagues as well as ourselves.
The reason the company does not respect the pilots is because we haven't earned their respect. They treat us with the contempt we deserve.
Go on AoA and DPA, surprise us all by standing up and saying enough is enough.
Hoping to applaud; expecting crickets.
Babbalito is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2018, 07:29
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 833
Originally Posted by Babbalito View Post
Seriously?

There is no fight at CX or KA.
The unions did nothing to stop the demise of expat terms in either company.. They are doing nothing to stop COS18. It is disgraceful that we don't protect our future colleagues as well as ourselves.
The reason the company does not respect the pilots is because we haven't earned their respect. They treat us with the contempt we deserve.
Go on AoA and DPA, surprise us all by standing up and saying enough is enough.
Hoping to applaud; expecting crickets.
Collectively, I have to agree with you. The AOA (at least the current iteration) is woeful in their competence (can't even seem to manage communicating with their members!). However, most of us individually are doing all we can. Many are sacrificing, and will continue to do so. I only hope that our GC and NC pull their thumbs out and start demonstrating they understand why they were elected. On current evidence, not so sure they have a clue.
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