Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

CX to decide if you’re really sick.

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

CX to decide if you’re really sick.

Old 21st Jul 2018, 10:57
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: HONG KONG
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Suppose the AOA will just let this slide in while they carry on ‘negotiating’ with the devil, just like no 13th month for Captains, no payrise last year when it was promised etc etc etc
Brown Nose is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2018, 20:31
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: www
Posts: 521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This new "policy" is a complete joke (and one that smells like the new GMA). If i'm in the UK, and become unfit, I might be lucky to get to see a Dr in three/four days at the earliest. So the policy is unworkable right from the start. Further, the company has NO right to my private medical information. I will do as i've always done: see a Dr (at the first available) IF it's more than 3 days (whether in HK or out of HK). If i'm out of HK, I will make a Dr. appointment, let the company know the DATE OF MY APPOINTMENT and then fax the same Dr. note to them i've always done (and now, as they need a note for ONE day, I will have to wait the multiple days until I can see a Doc, thereby extending my sickness out of HK. Brilliant). They can stuff their new web page up....

Ridiculous, and yet another sign they have completely lost the plot. Don't let yourselves be intimidated. AOA, where are you on this? And also, where are you on the CP telling us we can't call in sick after we've received a callout from reserve? Both of these issues are absurd, probably illegal and patently intimidatory (I thought we had a company policy against that?). I pay my dues, and I expect a serious and immediate attack against these attempts to intimidate me. For those who can leave this clown show of an airline, make haste.
Apple Tree Yard is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 02:59
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If the ability to self assess as UNFIT for flying duties is removed from a crew member, then it follows that the ability to self assess as FIT for flying duties is also removed by association?

If you cannot solely determine you are unfit, then how can you solely determine you are fit?

Perhaps we should all be getting a doctors note certifying fit for duty before any flight?
Farman Biplane is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 03:06
  #24 (permalink)  
swh

Eidolon
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Some hole
Posts: 2,116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Farman Biplane View Post
If the ability to self assess as UNFIT for flying duties is removed from a crew member, then it follows that the ability to self assess as FIT for flying duties is also removed by association?

If you cannot solely determine you are unfit, then how can you solely determine you are fit?

Perhaps we should all be getting a doctors note certifying fit for duty before any flight?
Excellent point, we should all see a doctor before each duty and get them to certify us as being fit.

What are the chances a doctor will say you are unfit because of alternating day night duties ?


swh is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 03:30
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 377
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The Boeing CP's comments re reporting unfit after call out from reserve are unbelievably asinine and open up himself and the company to serious law infringements and subsequent consequences (in those jurisdictions where the rule of law is actually applied). Elsewhere he reminds that Yammer is not PPRuNe, well here is more news for you CP, company newsletters are not policy documents much as you clearly believe you are permitted to make new policy on the hoof.
Starbear is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 05:42
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Here ---> X
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So... the usual CX employee management style then:

Tit for tat. Escalation. No carrot/bigger stick. Threats. Micromanagement. Intelligence gathering. Privacy invasion. General pigheadedness. Vindictiveness. Etc.

Sounds familiar.
Yonosoy Marinero is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 09:47
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,932
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You’ll be lucky to get a Doctors appointment in Melb at short notice, probably all of Australia.

Besides, with a flu or similar the last thing you want to do is leave home and sit in a Doctors waiting room........

stupid.
ACMS is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 17:01
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
As I have just posted on another thread, this policy is completely unworkable. I trust the AOA is backing up that point in no uncertain terms to the company. Regardless, it will be fun to watch the retreat by the company on this....only a matter of time. Morons.
Trafalgar is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2018, 00:39
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Here
Posts: 465
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Rumour has it the CMP "Dry runs" on both the 777 and Bus fleets have thrown up some "its legal so it must be safe" shockers.
Will be interesting, as there are not many trips to go round on the 777 these days for the number of crew on it, hence the forced migrations.
crwkunt roll is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2018, 05:19
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Unworkable Policy

Unworkable, of course it's unworkable. This is exactly what happens when "leadership" policy is driven by spite, signed off and approved by spineless sycophant directors, then given to a "People Director" with massive experience in artillery and boats to promulgate and enforce ( however only in the countries where this policy wouldn't immediately trigger a lawsuit)..

What the hell did you think would happen? All one must now do is wait for the policy to backfire and a few years longer for the privacy and coercion lawsuits to start piling up..

"As the World Turns" right in our own back yard. Movie rights anybody ?

Last edited by Flex88; 23rd Jul 2018 at 07:31.
Flex88 is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2018, 19:21
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Western Hemisphere
Age: 39
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Waterskier is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2018, 13:02
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
All the Chinese contract jobs that you’re all running off to sign up for (apparently) have their own doctors controlling their own Medicals. You can only get a sickness note off them, for your annual 7 days allowed. Bad time to mention?

I’ll get my coat.
morningcoffee is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2018, 16:19
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: www
Posts: 521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"Apparently"...? You might want to check the latest facts evidenced on the seniority list. As for the Dr notes in China, your point is what exactly? Oh, I forgot, you and your Swire management colleagues are looking to drive the industry (and CX) into the toilet. One small problem with that plan, the rest of the world is heading in the other direction, because their managements have woken up to the crisis of how they are going to crew their aircraft. I wish I was artistically talented, as a drawing of an ostrich with the head of a Swire manager would make for a good bumper sticker.

(ps, I hear that a certain ex personnel recruiter is gleefully processing hundreds of Aussie CX pilots applications)

Last edited by Apple Tree Yard; 25th Jul 2018 at 16:59.
Apple Tree Yard is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2018, 01:46
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Somewhere in the Four Corners
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post
All the Chinese contract jobs that you’re all running off to sign up for (apparently) have their own doctors controlling their own Medicals. You can only get a sickness note off them, for your annual 7 days allowed. Bad time to mention?

I’ll get my coat.
What you fail to mention MC, with said Chinese contract, you go there with a completely different mindset. You go as a contract pilot, a mercenary if you will, with zero emotional investment in the running of the airline. You also fail to mention that they pay more than CX, you get a guaranteed business seat home with 11 consecutive days off (if you choose that option), all of which leads to a healthier emotional and mental state, which means one’s sickness events probably drop. Oh, based on the recent CX choice for SFO hotel, the mainland carriers hotels can’t be any worse. As always, the devil is in the details. I concede, going north of the border is not everyone’s cup of tea but don’t let the facts get in the way of your ilk’s CX propaganda.




Last edited by Bo Wing; 26th Jul 2018 at 03:56.
Bo Wing is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2018, 03:27
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: No where
Posts: 891
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
At least MC has stopped pretending to be a pilot. That was becoming tedious and frankly a bit embarrassing. He has obviously decided to embrace his cubical reality.
Air Profit is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2018, 06:10
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Cesspit
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Liam Gallagher View Post
Anybody who thought the Jellyfish will be any different, has their answer very quickly. A heavy handed and ill-considered policy announced late on a Friday evening. We have all seen that movie before and we all know how it ends.

So long as you are in an English-speaking country, it's not difficult to get a Doctor's certificate. So apart from adding to the company's medical bills, this should have no impact for pilots that have their stuff together.

Had an interesting experience a few weeks back. Took a tumble whilst out running when on leave in the UK. Strained my quad. Not too bad, thought it would be 4-7 days and back running again. Was supposed to head back to work, but couldn't put any weight on the damaged quad, so thought it best to go sick. Saw my friendly doc in Manchester, who referred me to an equally friendly physio. Sent in the documents to the company and enquired if the "injury" meant my licence was suspended and would I need an MCQ. "Yes" was the answer. I had a duty on a Saturday and aimed to fly that duty. Doctor's don't work weekends, so first available appointment is Monday afternoon. Another 3 days off work, but managed to get some good rehab on the quad hiking up The Peak. I see the Company Doc who wants some details from the Doctor in Manchester. The next 7 days sees a big pointless and expensive paper chasing exercise.

The net result, if I could have self-certified I would have been off work 4 days. Following the Company's procedure cost about $3k in medical and 2 weeks off work. Did I care?-no. Did Corporate Medical care?-No. In fact both myself and Corporate Medical agreed the policy is stupid and neither party was particularly motivated to make it work.

Time to win?
Any injury that would prevent you from performing as a pilot, whether a duty was missed or not, cannot be self certified. Being unable to put any weight on a leg would fall into this category. The HKCAD must be notified, they will immediately suspend your medical certificate which will only become valid again once the process has been followed and completed including a MCQ.

The new sickness certification policy has no bearing on this HKCAD requirement or your responsibilities as a license holder.
Progress Wanchai is offline  
Old 28th Jul 2018, 04:21
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
AIC 06/16

“1.1 This circular serves to remind every holder of a medical certificate issued under Article 19 or 20 of the Air Navigation (Hong Kong) Order 1995 that he/she is not entitled to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in Hong Kong if he/she knows or reasonably suspects that his/her physical, mental, emotional, physiological (such as fatigue) or social condition renders him/her temporarily or permanently unfit to perform such functions or to act in such capacity.”

UNFIT FOR DUTY does not mean SICKNESS, there are many other factors.

If you report UNFIT and do not provide a Doctors note, then you are UNFIT for reasons other than sickness. This by definition is not dealt with by the Sickness Policy or the COS, but can be monitored by the AMP.

DO NOT SELF CERTIFY AS SICK, ONLY AS UNFIT FOR DUTY.

If they wish for you to see a company appointed medical specialist later then you will have to comply as part of the COS.
Farman Biplane is offline  
Old 31st Jul 2018, 00:48
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: HK MTR
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Why the policy change now? Is it preparation for increased sickness in Oct and Nov (CMP)?
Sand Man is offline  
Old 31st Jul 2018, 02:06
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Great question Sandman.

I suspect the answer is something to do with the new DFO/GMA's vision of pilot management. One thing that can be deduced from the new policy is that Management cannot be happy with the existing AMP.

Whether that's because they believe this new policy is actually better, or the resignation rate has got them desperately searching for solutions to make the roster work is a question that will be answered over time!!!

Did I say "overtime"?
Liam Gallagher is offline  
Old 31st Jul 2018, 02:42
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This whole episode smacks of corporate desperation. To ram a completely unworkable and laughably incompetent policy through, without any warning or negotiation with the AOA shows just how panicked they have become. The sickness rates are climbing at an ever increasing rate (particularly on the freighter), resignations are ramping up and generally the operation is beginning to fall apart (just see how many ports have had their service reduced). CX is now in full panic mode, and this policy (most likely an opening shot from the new GMA) is illuminating in it's thoughtlessness. In light of this move, why on earth are the AOA even considering continuing with negotiations? The company is still not dealing with reality, and until they do we should simply say, "call us when you can talk sense" (and $). In the meantime, I'm going to continue with my recuperation, sit down in my comfy chair with a bucket of popcorn and enjoy the show. You can't purchase entertainment as good as this.
mngmt mole is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.