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What to do with DEFO who can't fly

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What to do with DEFO who can't fly

Old 24th May 2018, 16:07
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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gulliBell: It sure is! Have you not heard of VMCA2 considerations?
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Old 24th May 2018, 17:15
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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VMCA2 considerations yes but that would mean only that takeoff speeds and landing speeds would be higher than a 777, negating the argument anyway.
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Old 24th May 2018, 18:39
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Angry What to Do ??

Originally Posted by AQIS Boigu View Post
Last year a DEFO got demoted to SO due to performance.

Another 777 conversion a couple hundred numbers out of seniority? Nooo, not in Cathay.


This slide started many years ago with the "non pilot" DFO and has continued since. The Jellyfish will make NO changes - cheap pilots rule !
Now, the only persons with ANY flight crew experience in the "People" dept (flight crew selection) have quit in disgust. The people selecting flight crew now are the same as those who interview and select clerks.
The whole experience / standards expectations thing really died when they put AW in charge and the then GMF selected the Dancing Buffoon to be in charge of the "young" "impressionable" "innocent" cadets in Adelaide.

#CXit
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Old 25th May 2018, 00:40
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Oh, and how does the company justify and rationalize a FO who is so tiny she can't manipulate the controls fully?
Because daddy stomped his feet.
Well, she can be certain of never getting a sector from me.
If you were a trainer Mr. Mole, and that's a big IF , unfortunately you'd have to, even though it went against all your principles, after them even being allowed to be employed over S/O's in the first place.
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Old 25th May 2018, 01:13
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Was the DEFO from the start of the thread moved to the 777 as a FO or a SO? The former would seem blantantly ridiculous, but the later might be workable. A few years of development as a SO under the mentoring training department might work. Oh, wait! What?
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Old 25th May 2018, 03:06
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Come on guys, that's too much coffee snorting for me for one day!
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Old 25th May 2018, 03:35
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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She's not the first one.
A few years ago, a cadet couldn't fly the 747 and was sent to the airbus.

I hope she'll develop flying skills in case she's got to upgrade on another fleet.
I don't know why, but I think the opposite could happen. I must admit my flying skills are not as good as when I was fresh out of school.

It makes one wonder. How do they manage to graduate from flight school? What's
the failure rate in Adelaide? Is the initial selection magically the best in the world and they only select skilled candidates?

At least in KA, they finally fired the cadet who had a 3G landing, and with whom the training captains had to take controls on every landing.

There's no excuse to have a DEFO who can't fly.

​​​
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Old 25th May 2018, 03:37
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Zapp_Brannigan View Post
She's not the first one.
A few years ago, a cadet couldn't fly the 747 and was sent to the airbus.

I hope she'll develop flying skills in case she's got to upgrade on another fleet.
I don't know why, but I think the opposite could happen. I must admit my flying skills are not as good as when I was fresh out of school.

It makes one wonder. How do they manage to graduate from flight school? What's
the failure rate in Adelaide? Is the initial selection magically the best in the world and they only select skilled candidates?

At least in KA, they finally fired the cadet who had a 3G landing, and with whom the training captains had to take controls on every landing.

There's no excuse to have a DEFO who can't fly.

​​​
what about the SOs that can fly ?? And have experience???
CXit
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Old 25th May 2018, 04:55
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by backtothegrindstone View Post


what about the SO’s that can fly ?? And have experience???
CXit




What about them? They took the decision to join CX as SOs. In that case, they will have to suck it up until they ace their eventual upgrades, should they not head off in the meantime to another airline.

Obvious really.




Last edited by Captain Dart; 25th May 2018 at 07:05.
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Old 25th May 2018, 08:02
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Threethirty: Unless the handling qualities of the -400/-8 are very much improved from the -200/-300 then the final approach flown from below Vmca2 to touchdown was much more challenging than a stabilised 1-eng inop. final approach on a twin. ( however I have only got VC9,B707,B747,A340 experience to compare to B737,A330,A320 ) Incidently the VC9 and B707 2-eng. inop. training used to be done on the real aircraft so simulator fidelity could be discounted. A point that should be borne in mind since these days precious few airline pilots will be given this rather "dubious" pleasure!
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Old 25th May 2018, 08:20
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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You people suck. Leave the lass alone. She is keen and a pleasant person. Whether or not she should be here is a quite a few pay grades above the likes of you and me. I wish her the best in her CV. I would have sent her to an even pussier aircraft, the French one perhaps. Anyone posting that a single engine approach in a 777 equates in any way to 2 engine inop approach in a Jumbo is a joker.
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Old 25th May 2018, 08:27
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Meikleour View Post
...Incidently the VC9 and B707 2-eng. inop. training used to be done on the real aircraft so simulator fidelity could be discounted...
The RAAF used to do double-engine asymmetric in B707. That is, until they dropped one in the sea when doing so and killing everyone on-board. Save that stuff for the sim, however realistic or otherwise it might be.
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Old 25th May 2018, 08:34
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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gullibell, you are like my son - you have opinions on issues of which you have very limited knowledge. That tragedy off Sale was exactly that, a tragedy and it had been waiting to happen for a while. If you are really interested in the facts PM me.
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Old 25th May 2018, 08:36
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by shortly2 View Post
..Anyone posting that a single engine approach in a 777 equates in any way to 2 engine inop approach in a Jumbo is a joker.
I posed the question originally because I didn't know the answer. But I would have thought all the elements viz the comprehension of the relevant ECL, the adherence to the target numbers, the assimilation of the maneuver, and the physical dexterity required for manipulation of controls, would be similar across both platforms. And the opinion of somebody who has flown both I don't count as a joker.

We have the same issue in the helicopter world. Young, ambitious, light weights usually of female gender who don't have the physical strength to fly an aircraft without hydraulic assistance when they should be able to. We had one in HK, she was scrubbed. There really can be no alternative if the pilot can't competently handle all the required maneuvers.
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Old 25th May 2018, 08:39
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by shortly2 View Post
gullibell, you are like my son - you have opinions on issues of which you have very limited knowledge...
Post #35 isn't an opinion, it is simply stating a fact. Stated as per iterated on the 6pm news on the day it happened.
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Old 25th May 2018, 09:13
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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With interest, I just read the summary report on the crash that you guys are talking about and have copied and pasted:

The Board noted there were deficiencies in the acquisition and documentation of 707 operational knowledge within the RAAF combined with the absence of effective mechanisms to prevent the erosion of operational knowledge at a time when large numbers of pilots were resigning from the air force.
Tick tock tick tock...
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Old 25th May 2018, 09:37
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Serious thread drift. I'm sure there is a dedicated thread elsewhere to discuss that incident.

The only defence for the said individual at the source of this thread might be a lack of training. However, ... I very much doubt that the STC's decision came down to only the two engine out work?

Whenever I read that our training department is exceptional, ... I think self-aggrandising, delusional propaganda.
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Old 25th May 2018, 09:48
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Betpump5: You have hit the nail on the head! Knowing some of the people involved at the time there was definitely a serious "dilution of expertise" going on when the RAAF aquired the aircraft from Qantas.
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Old 25th May 2018, 10:13
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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I'm calling a fake news alert here. If you're saying it's the instagram chick then you're wrong according to her roster.
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Old 25th May 2018, 11:48
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Meikleour View Post
Betpump5: You have hit the nail on the head! Knowing some of the people involved at the time there was definitely a serious "dilution of expertise" going on when the RAAF aquired the aircraft from Qantas.
Not quite correct, the dilution of experience occurred about 10 years later when QF put up their maximum recruitment age, not when they acquired the aircraft in '79.
In addition, double asymmetric on the aircraft was just fine and crews were trained to deal with that. The issue in that very sad event was that it was combined with a loss of rudder boost (triple failure outside of the aircraft certification). The result of this combination of failures is described in "Handling the Big Jets" written in 1967 with exactly the same result.

Last edited by Exit Strategy; 25th May 2018 at 12:23.
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