Is the grass really greener? Perspectives from an escapee.
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I left CX 6 months ago for a LH FO role with my national carrier and it has been the best decision I made. Yes you get a few less days off and money is down but the atmosphere is much more relaxed, training was a breath of fresh air and the routes are fantastic. Had a good time at CX due to the friends I made there but am happy to be out. Best of luck to all
looking to leave and hopefully the AOA can do something about COS18 shambles!
looking to leave and hopefully the AOA can do something about COS18 shambles!
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Congratulations CXKA. I think the majority of pilots here are rejects from their national airline, Qantas, BA etc who either failed on application or for whom the timing wasn’t right. We were at least consoled by CX being considered a first tier airline where you could hold your head up and say that you had made the grade and were adequately compensated. Many of us have made a few millions to take home in the process.
CoS18 now makes this an employment shelter of last resort with no consolation prize. It is now only good for getting a type rating and a bit of experience then off.
CoS18 now makes this an employment shelter of last resort with no consolation prize. It is now only good for getting a type rating and a bit of experience then off.
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Snowball effect
2 CN’s resigned in the last week, one more to follow shorty. Also 3 FO with 10+ years seniority out in the last 3 weeks. Not sure what the third floor is planning to do about it
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They’ll do nothing. The poor morale and deteriorating conditions are predominantly from the 9th floor, not the 3rd (exception for MICM which is gross mismanagement). The 3rd floor can only watch while Rome burns.
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Perspectives from the “greener side”
Here is my greener perspective form over here in Canada.. not meant to be a gripe, I truly love flying. I’m trying to compare to see if CX is a better path for me.
My previous job was flying the summer season on a light twin, doing fire mapping and low lever LIDAR work. My working conditions were such that I had no days off and was on the road for 6 months straight. My legal “days off” we’re weather days that we couldn’t fly. My flying days were 14hrs a day everyday that weather permitted, and expected to fly every day that I could. My salary was $2800 a month for the summer, and then laid off for the winter.
Now I’m at a regional carrier, who’s name I will not mention for obvious reasons. I fly 80hrs min a month minimum, average 6 legs a day, and make slightly less. I am scheduled to fly 18 days a month off, unless overtime is available. If I make captain I will make roughly 80k a year.
I’m trying to look objectively here and here’s what I see.. At Cathay I will make substantially more, and fly a lot less days.
Living in a major Canadian city, is not cheap I pay $1600 a month for 800sq ft pad nowhere near the airport I work out of. It’s a 2 hour drive in rush hour for me. Granted Hong Kong is more expensive.. so let’s call the increase in pay as a SO a wash for the cost of living.
I used to do long haul flying for a short time as a flight attendant and know all about the jet lag, and sleep cycle disruption. However, the long days I fly and the short rest in between leaves me just as exhausted. It’s a different kind of tired granted.. but I’m going to call that a wash as well.
Living in Hong Kong vs. Canada.. Canada is a great nation I love my country.. I also love experiencing new countries and parts of the world. It’s part of why I love to fly. The temperature for me in Canada today is -35C.. the warmer days hover around -10 at best. What I call winter, that being snow on the ground and temps below 0C is roughly 7 months long. Summers are epic mind you, they’re just fleetingly short. Living somewhere different, especially on days like today, sounds fantastic.
Looking at it longer term, I’ll upgrade.. make more money.. eventually get a base outside of HK.. (anyone know how long of a wait that currently is?) who knows, Australia sounds like a pretty swell place to live. On top of which I’ll get experience on large Jets that puts me in the market for countless other carriers that are just getting more and more hungry for pilots.
Is there anything I’m missing here? Or should consider? Do you CX guys and gals out there think things will improve in time or get worse?
TT 1200hrs frozen ATPL
My previous job was flying the summer season on a light twin, doing fire mapping and low lever LIDAR work. My working conditions were such that I had no days off and was on the road for 6 months straight. My legal “days off” we’re weather days that we couldn’t fly. My flying days were 14hrs a day everyday that weather permitted, and expected to fly every day that I could. My salary was $2800 a month for the summer, and then laid off for the winter.
Now I’m at a regional carrier, who’s name I will not mention for obvious reasons. I fly 80hrs min a month minimum, average 6 legs a day, and make slightly less. I am scheduled to fly 18 days a month off, unless overtime is available. If I make captain I will make roughly 80k a year.
I’m trying to look objectively here and here’s what I see.. At Cathay I will make substantially more, and fly a lot less days.
Living in a major Canadian city, is not cheap I pay $1600 a month for 800sq ft pad nowhere near the airport I work out of. It’s a 2 hour drive in rush hour for me. Granted Hong Kong is more expensive.. so let’s call the increase in pay as a SO a wash for the cost of living.
I used to do long haul flying for a short time as a flight attendant and know all about the jet lag, and sleep cycle disruption. However, the long days I fly and the short rest in between leaves me just as exhausted. It’s a different kind of tired granted.. but I’m going to call that a wash as well.
Living in Hong Kong vs. Canada.. Canada is a great nation I love my country.. I also love experiencing new countries and parts of the world. It’s part of why I love to fly. The temperature for me in Canada today is -35C.. the warmer days hover around -10 at best. What I call winter, that being snow on the ground and temps below 0C is roughly 7 months long. Summers are epic mind you, they’re just fleetingly short. Living somewhere different, especially on days like today, sounds fantastic.
Looking at it longer term, I’ll upgrade.. make more money.. eventually get a base outside of HK.. (anyone know how long of a wait that currently is?) who knows, Australia sounds like a pretty swell place to live. On top of which I’ll get experience on large Jets that puts me in the market for countless other carriers that are just getting more and more hungry for pilots.
Is there anything I’m missing here? Or should consider? Do you CX guys and gals out there think things will improve in time or get worse?
TT 1200hrs frozen ATPL
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Well, you’re looking at being an SO with NO stick time for 5 years. You said you love to fly. You’re looking at another 10+ as an FO, so 15+ to captain. Oh, and you will NEVER get a base! Those are meant for senior (expensive) pilots on expat benefits. You’ll be nicely cheap, very poor, and perfectly located in HK for life...
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Hummm interesting cxorcist, thanks for that. My buddy is interviewing with them next month and was told 2yrs as SO, and bases would be an option after a year or two as an FO
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Those are utter lies, no other word for them. Recruitment will say anything to get decent pilots to apply. They are very desperate, and it’s only getting worse. Captain upgrade time is currently over 12 years and going up rapidly. JFO upgrades are running at 4 years and also going up. I think CX will probably have no choice but to contract. There are lots of rumors about more leased aircraft being returned, although the Management try to keep a lid on this. Pilot morale is in the toilet, and a new TA was just voted down by nearly 80% of the HKAOA membership. This Company, despite operating in a healthy market, is really struggling. They are on the tail end of losing well over $3B US in fuel hedges in the last 4 years. Now they want their employees to help pay for that. Pilots are not buying, well most of us anyways. You’re better off flying RJs and then getting a real job with AC or Westjet.[/left]
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Cxocist is correct...it’s a lie! There have been no bases for almost 10 years. They promised to look at opening the bases again if we accepted the last TA. They were promising 10...yes only 10 captain bases in Australia. I’ve been here for more than 20 years and I have zero chance of getting on a base. You will also not get one in your time at CX. Don’t believe what recruitment is promising you, especially on COS 18, which is a vastly inferior contract compared to the current one.
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Listen to the advice being given. If your mate attended or is about to attend an interview ask for these basing and time to upgrade promises in writing. Of course you will not get this and more to the point if you/he did then thosespromises would be broken during your training. This company lies and lies and lies then intimidates and bullies. Over the weekend 80% of the unionised pilots voted to reject a new contract. The company which the previous day had promised respect towards the pilot group going forward immediately put out a press release attacking the pilot body. If you like flying get a flying job. CX doesn't offer that.
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Thanks Unitedabx and Cxorcist,
Sounds quote toxic to work there.. I appreciate the inside viewpoints as outside you get quite the rosy picture.
well I shouldn’t go so far as to say that.. looking at the boards, I can’t find very many positive comments about Cathay.
How is it.. with a global shortage of pilots.. companies still treat a diminishing resource so poorly? One would assume, attracting the dwindling talent available would be top priority. I know some carriers are waking up to this.. but so many aren’t?
Further, why would CX lie about bases out of HK? If they want to attract ppl, wouldn’t it make sense for them to offer those bases? Not only for employee satisfaction, but cost?
If pilots can live outside of HK.. it’s more affordable for them.. and CX wouldn’t have to pay a accommodation stipend.
Bit it I digress.. I must be crazy to think of things in simply logical terms
Sounds quote toxic to work there.. I appreciate the inside viewpoints as outside you get quite the rosy picture.
well I shouldn’t go so far as to say that.. looking at the boards, I can’t find very many positive comments about Cathay.
How is it.. with a global shortage of pilots.. companies still treat a diminishing resource so poorly? One would assume, attracting the dwindling talent available would be top priority. I know some carriers are waking up to this.. but so many aren’t?
Further, why would CX lie about bases out of HK? If they want to attract ppl, wouldn’t it make sense for them to offer those bases? Not only for employee satisfaction, but cost?
If pilots can live outside of HK.. it’s more affordable for them.. and CX wouldn’t have to pay a accommodation stipend.
Bit it I digress.. I must be crazy to think of things in simply logical terms
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Chadflies,
For years, they have been telling us it is cheaper to keep everyone in Hong Kong and not on the bases. You just have to do some simple math to figure out that the savings are huge by putting everyone on the base. Last year Jepperson recommended that they put 800 pilots on bases and that it will save them a boatload of cash. The biggest reason they do not want to let the majority of us go and live in our home countries is that they will then have to abide by first world labour laws and by doing that, they will lose control of their crews! Swire, who manages CX, thrive on division and control. They will contest the smallest of cases in court rather than giving something to a staff group for free. A real petty example of this is that the cabin crew had to go to court and fight with them, just so that they could choose to wear long pants rather than skirts during the flight. They also fought the retirement age case in the human's right court in New Zealand, to the cost of thousands of dollars, knowing that they were going to lose. This case would have only benefited about 30 pilots at most, but they fought it. The cabin crew also had to give concessions to them, so that they could extend their retirement age to 60! Where anywhere else in the world, it is illegal to age discriminate. The Paris base closure is another example, but I will not bore you with the details. look if you want to come here, do so, but be aware that you will not be getting a base. You will be earning significantly less than they promised you, as the hourly threshold you have to reach is very high. For an example, on the Airbus, you will have to fly 840 hours per year just to make your basic salary. I've been on the Airbus for 19 years plus and I have never hit that target. At best I have had 780 hours in a year, and I probably only go sick for 5-7 days a year. You will never make a cent in over time even when flying 100 hours a month, as they control the hours and are free to work stack you before or after you leave. Your HKPA, or "housing allowance, will not be sufficient for you to live in a spacious apartment..never. It is not indexed to the housing market, and it goes for years without being increased. When they do increase it, they will expect you to offer something in return in the form of more productivity. In a nutshell, this is what you will be signing up for, not what they promise you at your interview.
For years, they have been telling us it is cheaper to keep everyone in Hong Kong and not on the bases. You just have to do some simple math to figure out that the savings are huge by putting everyone on the base. Last year Jepperson recommended that they put 800 pilots on bases and that it will save them a boatload of cash. The biggest reason they do not want to let the majority of us go and live in our home countries is that they will then have to abide by first world labour laws and by doing that, they will lose control of their crews! Swire, who manages CX, thrive on division and control. They will contest the smallest of cases in court rather than giving something to a staff group for free. A real petty example of this is that the cabin crew had to go to court and fight with them, just so that they could choose to wear long pants rather than skirts during the flight. They also fought the retirement age case in the human's right court in New Zealand, to the cost of thousands of dollars, knowing that they were going to lose. This case would have only benefited about 30 pilots at most, but they fought it. The cabin crew also had to give concessions to them, so that they could extend their retirement age to 60! Where anywhere else in the world, it is illegal to age discriminate. The Paris base closure is another example, but I will not bore you with the details. look if you want to come here, do so, but be aware that you will not be getting a base. You will be earning significantly less than they promised you, as the hourly threshold you have to reach is very high. For an example, on the Airbus, you will have to fly 840 hours per year just to make your basic salary. I've been on the Airbus for 19 years plus and I have never hit that target. At best I have had 780 hours in a year, and I probably only go sick for 5-7 days a year. You will never make a cent in over time even when flying 100 hours a month, as they control the hours and are free to work stack you before or after you leave. Your HKPA, or "housing allowance, will not be sufficient for you to live in a spacious apartment..never. It is not indexed to the housing market, and it goes for years without being increased. When they do increase it, they will expect you to offer something in return in the form of more productivity. In a nutshell, this is what you will be signing up for, not what they promise you at your interview.
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Isn’t that the truth? CX is in shambles.
You should have seen the Jellyfish slink around yesterday. Talk about a fish out of water, looks like he’s about to get sacked. I sure hope he stays. I think he genuinely wants to repair the relationship with the pilots, but that might be impossible given the cannibals he works for on the 9th floor. He’s like a car salesman stuck between his bosses and a determined buyer, not much he can do when neither side will budge. So he’s out hunting for new suckers to join on POS18. I can’t say that I blame him, which is why our job is to educate these guys and gals about the extreme shortcomings of the offer.
You should have seen the Jellyfish slink around yesterday. Talk about a fish out of water, looks like he’s about to get sacked. I sure hope he stays. I think he genuinely wants to repair the relationship with the pilots, but that might be impossible given the cannibals he works for on the 9th floor. He’s like a car salesman stuck between his bosses and a determined buyer, not much he can do when neither side will budge. So he’s out hunting for new suckers to join on POS18. I can’t say that I blame him, which is why our job is to educate these guys and gals about the extreme shortcomings of the offer.
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I say again. Ask for these promises in writing. You'll not get them and then ask them why not ? You won't get the job offer because they don't want thinking pilots they want compliant under 25's with nowhere else to go.
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It's utterly pathetic to ask lowtimers to fight your battles for you.
A 20-something with wet ink on his license will take a job with Cathay regardless of the conditions. I did many, many years of flying with basicly no renumination. I propably made less money in total during my first 3000 hours than these kids make in their first year. Fly the jets, get the ratings, and you've still got 30 years to figure out lifestyle and retirement. Most of us have been there.
Whatever sh1tstorm is currently brewing, its all on the current pilots who didn't stomach fighting B-scale, nor C, nor D, nor this. Get over yourselves and come to terms with the 3-month contract you've signed. This is not Australia, not New-Zealand and certainly not the US wherer prostitution for flight-hours has been the standard for decades. This is Hong Kong where you offer your services to a cynical employer on a rolling 3-month contract. Making a deal with the devil certainly clings silver in the coffer, but don't come complaining when he comes to claim what's due.
Based on tens of thousands of comments on these forums, I'm sure any potential new-hire knows exactly what he's getting into. And if he's fine with that, then all the better for everybody. Current pilots should keep their mouths shut, as they lost this fight a long, long time ago.
A 20-something with wet ink on his license will take a job with Cathay regardless of the conditions. I did many, many years of flying with basicly no renumination. I propably made less money in total during my first 3000 hours than these kids make in their first year. Fly the jets, get the ratings, and you've still got 30 years to figure out lifestyle and retirement. Most of us have been there.
Whatever sh1tstorm is currently brewing, its all on the current pilots who didn't stomach fighting B-scale, nor C, nor D, nor this. Get over yourselves and come to terms with the 3-month contract you've signed. This is not Australia, not New-Zealand and certainly not the US wherer prostitution for flight-hours has been the standard for decades. This is Hong Kong where you offer your services to a cynical employer on a rolling 3-month contract. Making a deal with the devil certainly clings silver in the coffer, but don't come complaining when he comes to claim what's due.
Based on tens of thousands of comments on these forums, I'm sure any potential new-hire knows exactly what he's getting into. And if he's fine with that, then all the better for everybody. Current pilots should keep their mouths shut, as they lost this fight a long, long time ago.
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Living in a major Canadian city, is not cheap I pay $1600 a month for 800sq ft pad nowhere near the airport I work out of. It’s a 2 hour drive in rush hour for me. Granted Hong Kong is more expensive.. so let’s call the increase in pay as a SO a wash for the cost of living.
A while ago there was an urban myth some of the CX SOs live in Hokkaido, Japan and used staff travel to commute to Hong Kong for work because "that was the only affordable dignified accommodation option for their salary".
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Hello there,
I've been reading this thread for a while and found out that most people here are from western countries. So I found it difficult to compare my company to CX.
I'd much appreciate if anyone can tell if things are better or worse at CX than my current situation.
I'm a 737 fo with 1800 hours tt of which 1500 hours on type, making 5,500-6,000 usd per month including every allowance, per-diem, etc and my wife is an office worker making 3,500 usd, so total monthly income 9-9.5k for my family.
We have two kids and live typical middle class life in a 650 sq ft apartment and save 3,000 usd.
Flying-wise, I fly 65 hours, 10 day offs, 8-9 nights layovers on monthly average.
I'm not american, australian, nor european so working in western world is not my option.
What I'm looking for if I work at CX are better crm, bigger jet, long haul experience, more time with family and my kids going to international school.
Would I better be CX or stay here?
I've been reading this thread for a while and found out that most people here are from western countries. So I found it difficult to compare my company to CX.
I'd much appreciate if anyone can tell if things are better or worse at CX than my current situation.
I'm a 737 fo with 1800 hours tt of which 1500 hours on type, making 5,500-6,000 usd per month including every allowance, per-diem, etc and my wife is an office worker making 3,500 usd, so total monthly income 9-9.5k for my family.
We have two kids and live typical middle class life in a 650 sq ft apartment and save 3,000 usd.
Flying-wise, I fly 65 hours, 10 day offs, 8-9 nights layovers on monthly average.
I'm not american, australian, nor european so working in western world is not my option.
What I'm looking for if I work at CX are better crm, bigger jet, long haul experience, more time with family and my kids going to international school.
Would I better be CX or stay here?