Is the grass really greener? Perspectives from an escapee.
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I would stay, assuming you can upgrade in due time. You certainly won’t be saving $3000usd / month in HK. Your place in HK will likely be smaller and/or lower quality. Schools will really set you back in HK. You will probably lose much of your savings to the debentures just getting them into internationals. Your wife will probably have a hard time replacing her income unless she has skills beyond that of a normal office worker. The culture in HK is not desirable for most, especially without excess income, but some do seem to genuinely enjoy it.
Avi8safely, many posters here are honestly trying to give you the true story of what life is like in HKG on a CX salary
I’ll add my knowledge to help your decision.
I doubt whether any pilot with less that 5 years in CX is saving 3000 US per month. They get by, but there is often more month at the end of the money.
I rent a 580 sq ft 2 bedroom flat in Discovery bay, a half hour busride from the airport. For production living it is not bad. UK would class it as B2/C1 social. Safe, kids run around at night, surrounded by green hills and the sea. I pay close to 2500USD for this on the 6th floor of a 24 story block. I have no kids, and would not like to bring up two kids in the space- but HK people do it in much less space. The schooling is good and a short bus ride away but expensive by world standards. Having no kids I can only go on what my neighbours tell me. But a non pilot neighbour taking home 10,000 USD with two kids in the Discovery bay school confides that they are often in debt and are stressed because of this.
For your wife, an office manager may make 2,000 USD per month but it is very competitive to get that sum. A friend employs an admin clerk for 1500USD per month. The lady still lives with her parents as she cannot afford to rent anywhere in hk on that market salary.
HK is a great city for a couple of years when single and carefree. It is very difficult to provide for a family, make savings and live a decent life on the remuneration that CX offers. It is a McJob until you find a career.
As quoted on another forum, what is the difference between a (CX) pilot and a 12in pizza? You can feed a family of 4 with a 12 inch pizza.
Hard but true!
I’ll add my knowledge to help your decision.
I doubt whether any pilot with less that 5 years in CX is saving 3000 US per month. They get by, but there is often more month at the end of the money.
I rent a 580 sq ft 2 bedroom flat in Discovery bay, a half hour busride from the airport. For production living it is not bad. UK would class it as B2/C1 social. Safe, kids run around at night, surrounded by green hills and the sea. I pay close to 2500USD for this on the 6th floor of a 24 story block. I have no kids, and would not like to bring up two kids in the space- but HK people do it in much less space. The schooling is good and a short bus ride away but expensive by world standards. Having no kids I can only go on what my neighbours tell me. But a non pilot neighbour taking home 10,000 USD with two kids in the Discovery bay school confides that they are often in debt and are stressed because of this.
For your wife, an office manager may make 2,000 USD per month but it is very competitive to get that sum. A friend employs an admin clerk for 1500USD per month. The lady still lives with her parents as she cannot afford to rent anywhere in hk on that market salary.
HK is a great city for a couple of years when single and carefree. It is very difficult to provide for a family, make savings and live a decent life on the remuneration that CX offers. It is a McJob until you find a career.
As quoted on another forum, what is the difference between a (CX) pilot and a 12in pizza? You can feed a family of 4 with a 12 inch pizza.
Hard but true!
That's it in a nutshell. Use Cathay just like they will use you. CX is not a career, it's a stepping stone to a proper job. Take the abuse and the mean spirited everything then move on.
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Maybe for DFO, but if you come in as a SO your hours are worthless. By the time you become a FO you would have wasted a few years and to jump ship to another airline, you’d start at the bottom of seniority. CX is fully aware of this, they know once you sign up as a SO you’re stuck with them.
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This is an excellent point and should be taken as a warning to those considering it. Imo, it’s far better to cut your teeth anywhere else... GA, corporate, bush flying, regional, military. Any of these will enhance your actual flying skills that may someday save your life.
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Hello all
Based on what i've been able to find out, an SO at CX isn't actually type rated, and the hours you log can only be counted as P2X time...
What on earth is P2X time in the rest of the world? From what i've read P2X time is something only found in HK logbooks made specifically for companies like CX.
I am currently sitting at 270 hours and i'm waiting to receive interview dates for the direct entry SO position. I am trying to wrap my head around why exactly SO P2X time is completely useless. Does it not count towards your total time at least? So let's say I hypothetically fly 700 hours in my first year as an SO and that's all P2X time, how would I log that in my Canadian logbook? Would I not technically have 970 hours total time at the end of the first year?
I would imagine that an SO that has logged say 2000 hours P2X time must have some sort of use with those hours elsewhere in the world, or does no one in the world recognize P2X time and that's why it's useless?
Based on what i've been able to find out, an SO at CX isn't actually type rated, and the hours you log can only be counted as P2X time...
What on earth is P2X time in the rest of the world? From what i've read P2X time is something only found in HK logbooks made specifically for companies like CX.
I am currently sitting at 270 hours and i'm waiting to receive interview dates for the direct entry SO position. I am trying to wrap my head around why exactly SO P2X time is completely useless. Does it not count towards your total time at least? So let's say I hypothetically fly 700 hours in my first year as an SO and that's all P2X time, how would I log that in my Canadian logbook? Would I not technically have 970 hours total time at the end of the first year?
I would imagine that an SO that has logged say 2000 hours P2X time must have some sort of use with those hours elsewhere in the world, or does no one in the world recognize P2X time and that's why it's useless?
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YGBSM.
You know, I often see folks get flamed on this section and think poorly of the flamers.
But you can't fix stupid.
You are on the "grass is really greener" thread from escapees. Yet are trying to somehow rationalize poking your nose into the same hornets' nest that so many others have (with a great deal more experience in aviation and life), escaped, and told their tale such that others might not fall off the same cliff. By people who've dumped a great deal of seniority and sometimes life to get out and finally be happy. And many are.
Have a look through the other threads and try to glean a glimpse of happiness with anything work-related. And maybe consider abandoning the "if I stick my hand into the boiling water perhaps I won't get burned THIS time" mentality.
You know, I often see folks get flamed on this section and think poorly of the flamers.
But you can't fix stupid.
You are on the "grass is really greener" thread from escapees. Yet are trying to somehow rationalize poking your nose into the same hornets' nest that so many others have (with a great deal more experience in aviation and life), escaped, and told their tale such that others might not fall off the same cliff. By people who've dumped a great deal of seniority and sometimes life to get out and finally be happy. And many are.
Have a look through the other threads and try to glean a glimpse of happiness with anything work-related. And maybe consider abandoning the "if I stick my hand into the boiling water perhaps I won't get burned THIS time" mentality.
Last edited by Slasher1; 4th May 2019 at 18:19.
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In HKG SO log P2X time for only when they are in the seat (even though the company expects those watching from the back seats to be involved in the operation and monitoring).
I recommend you ask your local aviation authority how the view P2X time and what time you can log in your non-HKG logbook - many countries log total flight time, not just seat time.
Some airlines now accept P2X time as valid time when interviewing (supply and demand) - ask the real airlines you may wish to work at how they view P2X time.
You don't want to under log your time. CX can be useful for gaining some SIM experience and even some P2X time prior to getting the job you really want.
I recommend you ask your local aviation authority how the view P2X time and what time you can log in your non-HKG logbook - many countries log total flight time, not just seat time.
Some airlines now accept P2X time as valid time when interviewing (supply and demand) - ask the real airlines you may wish to work at how they view P2X time.
You don't want to under log your time. CX can be useful for gaining some SIM experience and even some P2X time prior to getting the job you really want.
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a334
You’ve basically answered your own question already, those hours are essentially useless and many/most airlines would not count them towards their hiring requirements (although sometimes a few desperate ones will accept some P2X/ cruise relief hours at, say, 1/3 the hours logged). Like controlledrest says, do your due diligence and canvass potential employers you like for whether they take this type of time into account. Consider that while some airlines may presently accept some P2X time due to the current worldwide need for pilots, this may no longer be the case a few years down the line.
With CX going two S/O operations on longhaul (thus fewer F/Os needed) you can expect 5+ years as an S/O accruing this fairly useless time.That said, if you’re very young and have time on your side, you will then slide into the right seat of a wide body airliner, and within 7-8 years of joining, start accumulating some valid experience for an employer elsewhere. But in view of the dire new POS18 “contract” I would still suggest other alternatives if available. You never know what the hiring situation will be in 8 years: if it’s the middle of a downturn you might find yourself stuck here for much longer than expected and suddenly find yourself trapped here by seniority.
You’ve basically answered your own question already, those hours are essentially useless and many/most airlines would not count them towards their hiring requirements (although sometimes a few desperate ones will accept some P2X/ cruise relief hours at, say, 1/3 the hours logged). Like controlledrest says, do your due diligence and canvass potential employers you like for whether they take this type of time into account. Consider that while some airlines may presently accept some P2X time due to the current worldwide need for pilots, this may no longer be the case a few years down the line.
With CX going two S/O operations on longhaul (thus fewer F/Os needed) you can expect 5+ years as an S/O accruing this fairly useless time.That said, if you’re very young and have time on your side, you will then slide into the right seat of a wide body airliner, and within 7-8 years of joining, start accumulating some valid experience for an employer elsewhere. But in view of the dire new POS18 “contract” I would still suggest other alternatives if available. You never know what the hiring situation will be in 8 years: if it’s the middle of a downturn you might find yourself stuck here for much longer than expected and suddenly find yourself trapped here by seniority.
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I did find some info regarding cruise relief time in Canada, and based on what the advisory circular states, cruise relief time counts in full, however the way it's explained seems a little murky. I wanted to ask here for those who have direct experience in logging P2X time. I will see if I can find someone at the regulations office who can maybe give me an answer, but at the same time what the regulators say may not matter to an airline all that much so I would have to see if I could find a way to talk directly to someone at a major airline
Anyways thank you as well for your help
Anyways thank you as well for your help
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a334
It’s pretty simple really. Get a real job in which you actually fly the aircraft. Handing whatever skills you have now to CX and autopilots where they can only be destroyed is worst thing you can do. Don’t fool yourself... the money isn’t there, the flying experience isn’t there for many years, and you certainly won’t be getting a base in Canada or elsewhere anytime soon, if ever. HK is very undesirable on low pay. It’s truly a no brainer, but if you’re like every other dumb kid on these forums, you won’t listen, so I’m just wasting my time, again.
It’s pretty simple really. Get a real job in which you actually fly the aircraft. Handing whatever skills you have now to CX and autopilots where they can only be destroyed is worst thing you can do. Don’t fool yourself... the money isn’t there, the flying experience isn’t there for many years, and you certainly won’t be getting a base in Canada or elsewhere anytime soon, if ever. HK is very undesirable on low pay. It’s truly a no brainer, but if you’re like every other dumb kid on these forums, you won’t listen, so I’m just wasting my time, again.
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I think that's what is both frustrating and comical about the situation at the same time. I did ALOT of dumb things as a kid, but can't remember being this willing to elaborately rationalize doing something really really dumb against just about everyones' better advice.
I get the image of an old timer looking at a kid with a can of gasoline he's about to use to start a bonfire. He carefully explains how gasoline more explodes than burns when you light it, and that the kid is about to hurt himself. He even leads him over to some kerosene to use instead (or maybe even diesel). The old timer goes as far as to show the kid scars on his hands and arms from when HE tried to light a bonfire with gasoline -- not having the benefit at the time of someone being there with experience and genuine concern.
But nothing he says or alternatives he suggests has any impact. The kid pours the gasoline on the wood, lights a match, a huge WHOOOOOOOOMP, and you get to read about him in the news.
I get the image of an old timer looking at a kid with a can of gasoline he's about to use to start a bonfire. He carefully explains how gasoline more explodes than burns when you light it, and that the kid is about to hurt himself. He even leads him over to some kerosene to use instead (or maybe even diesel). The old timer goes as far as to show the kid scars on his hands and arms from when HE tried to light a bonfire with gasoline -- not having the benefit at the time of someone being there with experience and genuine concern.
But nothing he says or alternatives he suggests has any impact. The kid pours the gasoline on the wood, lights a match, a huge WHOOOOOOOOMP, and you get to read about him in the news.
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Back to the original point of this whole thread. I used to work at this airline as an s/o and have left. Like someone else has posted previously the grass
is more or less the same but the main thing is I’m living where I want to be and have a good lifestyle and actually enjoy the challenges of flying in a window seat again.
When I say that the grass is more or less the same I am saying that there’s always going to be people complaining about rosters and time off ect. But it’s nice to be in the flight deck talking about normal things as opposed to how awful the company is ect.
Regarding the p2x time I was surprised how much the airline I am now at regarded the so time and it
will count, if you like for company requirements for command ect however in terms or the relevant authority I am not sure they will “count” these hours toward ATPLl or maybe they will count half of it.
Regarding logging I logged the time in my home logbook as block to block and specified that it was SO time.
Finally to anyone considering moving on, I definitely do not regret my decision to move on and am thoroughly enjoying life in my home country.
is more or less the same but the main thing is I’m living where I want to be and have a good lifestyle and actually enjoy the challenges of flying in a window seat again.
When I say that the grass is more or less the same I am saying that there’s always going to be people complaining about rosters and time off ect. But it’s nice to be in the flight deck talking about normal things as opposed to how awful the company is ect.
Regarding the p2x time I was surprised how much the airline I am now at regarded the so time and it
will count, if you like for company requirements for command ect however in terms or the relevant authority I am not sure they will “count” these hours toward ATPLl or maybe they will count half of it.
Regarding logging I logged the time in my home logbook as block to block and specified that it was SO time.
Finally to anyone considering moving on, I definitely do not regret my decision to move on and am thoroughly enjoying life in my home country.
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a334 Be careful with the regs when you talk about Cruise Relief time. Relief pilots at AC are fully type rated - P1, not the make believe P2X that Cathay uses. The fact that other Airlines understand what a CX SO does helps with the interview but will not give you hours for your licence.
Unless you are Passport blocked or otherwise unemployable, Cathay on COS18 is a mistake.
Unless you are Passport blocked or otherwise unemployable, Cathay on COS18 is a mistake.
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Relief pilots at AC get an unrestricted rating, but they do not have the same P1/P2/P2X system as they do in Hong Kong. Their ratings used to be cruise restricted, until pilots started worrying about their employability during an economic downturn. Cruise relief time is still cruise relief time, and they are logged as "co-pilot" without credit for takeoffs and landings. The Hong Kong P2X is a restricted rating for the cruise, which is essentially what their RPs used to have.
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I did find some info regarding cruise relief time in Canada, and based on what the advisory circular states, cruise relief time counts in full, however the way it's explained seems a little murky. I wanted to ask here for those who have direct experience in logging P2X time. I will see if I can find someone at the regulations office who can maybe give me an answer, but at the same time what the regulators say may not matter to an airline all that much so I would have to see if I could find a way to talk directly to someone at a major airline
Anyways thank you as well for your help
Anyways thank you as well for your help
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Re: P2X
Take this for what it’s worth from an anonymous person on the internet who has been there.
Once you have 1000hrs+ as a (preferably) type rated FO nobody, and I do mean nobody these days, cares about the rest of your logbook and how it is made up. At that 1000hr FO point your P2X hours then could well be F18 hours as far as airline recruiters are concerned. Until you get to that point your P2X hours are worth very little unless your airline of choice is absolutely desperate and it really just puts you in the same pool as the low houred non-TR guy. I know of one guy who joined a UK major on a big jet on the back of P2X only and the old Head of Training at said airline has since confirmed they wont entertain that idea again and he basically ended up doing a full rating on something else.
If you’re 21 and fancy HK for a few years I still maintain it’s a great start to your career. It is a lot of fun at the start. The second you start thinking of settling down, bang out immediately. CX is an utterly toxic place to work and it can’t be done on what they currently offer.
Take this for what it’s worth from an anonymous person on the internet who has been there.
Once you have 1000hrs+ as a (preferably) type rated FO nobody, and I do mean nobody these days, cares about the rest of your logbook and how it is made up. At that 1000hr FO point your P2X hours then could well be F18 hours as far as airline recruiters are concerned. Until you get to that point your P2X hours are worth very little unless your airline of choice is absolutely desperate and it really just puts you in the same pool as the low houred non-TR guy. I know of one guy who joined a UK major on a big jet on the back of P2X only and the old Head of Training at said airline has since confirmed they wont entertain that idea again and he basically ended up doing a full rating on something else.
If you’re 21 and fancy HK for a few years I still maintain it’s a great start to your career. It is a lot of fun at the start. The second you start thinking of settling down, bang out immediately. CX is an utterly toxic place to work and it can’t be done on what they currently offer.