The Latest Act of Desperation
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MM wasn't talking about 'today'. He was mentioning that the US industry is looking ahead to the next few YEARS, and sees a massive shortage of experienced pilots. It's interesting how this issue seems to so rile up the Yank pilots, as though it's somehow a threat to their little world that someone from another part of the world may join their club. It happened in the 1960's and most insiders think it will again. The demographic trend can't be overcome. Too many retirements in too short a period of time, combined with expansion will see the available pool of qualified people run dry. Again, no one really knows the final outcome, so why don't you all calm down and what will be will be. 
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just can't let it go Air Profit, can you? There will never be a shortage at any of the legancy airlines. Numbers were posted in previous posts, which you conveniently ignore. It will never happen! I know that is a blow to your CX inflated ego, but you'll just have to figure out a way to accept it. You obviously have no idea about the US airline industry, but keep digging a hole for yourself, you make it a rather entertaining thread.
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The US pilot unions didn't end up where they are by rolling over whenever heads of training wanted to make their budgets. So I am sure that while there are discussions, implementation is more debatable. I mean, FDX have a base in HK, with no non US/ Green card pilots.
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The lottery? Is that what you call your applications to DL, UA and AA? I wouldn't even call it that - at least with the lottery you have a chance.
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I'm sure ALPA is just dying to get foreign pilots from basically the most pathetic union in this industry. Guys like Air Profit training his cheaper, zero experience replacements, all while asking other unions not to train their pilots. Air Profit must personally be getting recruited!
Air Profit and MM,
I'll take another run at my questions since the subject interests me and historical perspective might be germane to whatever the future holds...and you guys seem to have some information on the subject:
You both mentioned that US carriers have actively solicited foreign nationals back in the 60s, I'm assuming with government assistance with visas, etc. I can't dispute what you're saying but can you provide the history of those events and a list of the airlines (or a link to such history) ?
[green card holders don't count]
AP, you mentioned the comments by your friend at a US legacy training department but didn't fill in the context of his remarks. Did he say the airlines have now formally approached the US kackistocracy to lobby for leeway on visas for foreign nationals to come fly for legacies...or were they just pondering the possible need to do that in the future ? There's a rather large difference between those two cases.
There's no particular reason why people would take the trouble to follow the recruiting/hiring situation here in the US but I do. If the US legacies (who are keenly aware of the retirement attrition) are sweating bullets over future pilot supply, they have a VERY odd way of demonstrating it.
You'd be stunned at the qualifications of the legions of people who can't even get an interview with a career-destination carrier and/or the ones interviewed and turned away. Just getting an interview is a huge hurdle.
Under current hiring attitudes, anyone rolling in with a fat logbook of WB time and thinking the US carriers will fall at their feet might be in for a real surprise.
I wonder how the HR types will feel about their previous "rejects" when they really need to fill seats (the legacy bell curve peaks in 2028). I'm looking forward to seeing that happen.
As for US pilots being a little irked at the prospect, I suppose your reaction might be similar if a bunch of Americans rolled into the UK legacy world and set up shop. Just kinda human nature.
I'll take another run at my questions since the subject interests me and historical perspective might be germane to whatever the future holds...and you guys seem to have some information on the subject:
You both mentioned that US carriers have actively solicited foreign nationals back in the 60s, I'm assuming with government assistance with visas, etc. I can't dispute what you're saying but can you provide the history of those events and a list of the airlines (or a link to such history) ?
[green card holders don't count]
AP, you mentioned the comments by your friend at a US legacy training department but didn't fill in the context of his remarks. Did he say the airlines have now formally approached the US kackistocracy to lobby for leeway on visas for foreign nationals to come fly for legacies...or were they just pondering the possible need to do that in the future ? There's a rather large difference between those two cases.
There's no particular reason why people would take the trouble to follow the recruiting/hiring situation here in the US but I do. If the US legacies (who are keenly aware of the retirement attrition) are sweating bullets over future pilot supply, they have a VERY odd way of demonstrating it.
You'd be stunned at the qualifications of the legions of people who can't even get an interview with a career-destination carrier and/or the ones interviewed and turned away. Just getting an interview is a huge hurdle.
Under current hiring attitudes, anyone rolling in with a fat logbook of WB time and thinking the US carriers will fall at their feet might be in for a real surprise.
I wonder how the HR types will feel about their previous "rejects" when they really need to fill seats (the legacy bell curve peaks in 2028). I'm looking forward to seeing that happen.
As for US pilots being a little irked at the prospect, I suppose your reaction might be similar if a bunch of Americans rolled into the UK legacy world and set up shop. Just kinda human nature.
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As you have asked your questions in a polite and dignified manner, I will endeavor to clarify. All of the US major airlines have been in discussion with the Department of Homeland Security (Immigration) to advise and caution that over the coming years they will have trouble satisfying their requirement for suitably qualified pilots to satisfy their retirement (UA, approx 65% in the next 7 yrs, similar in most majors) and expansion needs. A simple demographic analysis clearly proves that fact. Further, the US Govt will only need to add pilot to the list of approved employer needed skills (such as doctor and nurse as examples) that are then granted green cards (immigration status) to enable them to move to the US and become employed by US carriers. Many professions have that status already (as mentioned above). I am not sure why this idea gets the yanks so upset? It can only happen if they can't source the required aircrew domestically. This date is still two to three years out. Don't forget, they are already doing this on behalf of the commuter airlines that can't find enough pilots now (some have already shut down due to no pilots). To argue that somehow this will never happen is absurd, as none of us can predict how this situation will evolve (and I am only relaying info, not stating the outcome). As I said, the above info is from the head of training for one of the US majors. He is obviously more in the loop than any of us.
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As you have asked your questions in a polite and dignified manner, I will endeavor to clarify. All of the US major airlines have been in discussion with the Department of Homeland Security (Immigration) to advise and caution that over the coming years they will have trouble satisfying their requirement for suitably qualified pilots to satisfy their retirement (UA, approx 65% in the next 7 yrs, similar in most majors) and expansion needs. A simple demographic analysis clearly proves that fact. Further, the US Govt will only need to add pilot to the list of approved employer needed skills (such as doctor and nurse as examples) that are then granted green cards (immigration status) to enable them to move to the US and become employed by US carriers. Many professions have that status already (as mentioned above). I am not sure why this idea gets the yanks so upset? It can only happen if they can't source the required aircrew domestically. This date is still two to three years out. Don't forget, they are already doing this on behalf of the commuter airlines that can't find enough pilots now (some have already shut down due to no pilots). To argue that somehow this will never happen is absurd, as none of us can predict how this situation will evolve (and I am only relaying info, not stating the outcome). As I said, the above info is from the head of training for one of the US majors. He is obviously more in the loop than any of us.
You really have no idea what you are talking about. The Legacies in the USA are the best paying airline jobs in the world. There will never be a shortage of Americans applying for these positions. Please, show me the math that these Legacies will have a hard time recruiting. Don't tell me about you "friend" at the mystery "major" having secret meetings only you and him know about. Give us facts... numbers, freaking anything!
Why is this so hard for you to understand? Do you comprehend how big the military is, the regionals, are, and GA is in the USA? That actually wasn't a question because you obviously don't.
I know I know... CX Testers are never wrong... can't lose face! Keep showing those 250 hr pilots who's boss! Doing it to give back to the profession, right?
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Further, the US Govt will only need to add pilot to the list of approved employer needed skills (such as doctor and nurse as examples) that are then granted green cards (immigration status)... Don't forget, they are already doing this on behalf of the commuter airlines that can't find enough pilots now (some have already shut down due to no pilots).
Oh Wise One,
Please let us know of what regionals are giving green cards, or any visa for that matter leading to permanent residency in the USA? Please, name just one... any one...
We're all waiting to hear. This should be interesting.
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How big the military is? Oh, you mean the military that just recalled 2000 pilots back FROM the airlines because they have a critical shortage. The regional airlines that have had to reduce their schedules, and have even shut down due to an increasingly critical shortage of pilots. Major US airlines, that are already desperately competing for the available pool of experienced pilots, and who's executives have publicly fretted about the looming shortage. Boeing themselves who are warning their customers about the need to source pilots. I get that the US pilots on this forum seem to have an amazingly thin skin about the issue, but AP and others have only stated that the granting of greencards/visas would ONLY be done as the domestic pool of pilots runs dry, something that many industry pundits have predicted. Of course, people such as iflylow and sweeptheleg know exactly what will happen in the future. Remarkable. At least AP has only posited an opinion, and not stated an outcome, like the soothsayers above.
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This should be almost as good as Air Profit. Can you please provide anything showing anything at all proving 2000 pilots have been recalled into the military? Maybe even 200? No wait, 20? Actually even 2? I need to give my military buddies a heads up they should be back on active duty!! 😲
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I believe this is what MM was referring to:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...ed-pilots.html
It's a 1000, and only addresses the 'growing shortage' in the US Military. So MM, not quite correct, but the point you make is valid. The shortage is getting more and more acute, and will only get worse. Not sure why you seem so exercised by this iflylow. I suspect you never made it in the US majors, and just have a bit of a chip regarding anyone who does, particularly the idea of someone from another country. Remember, after all the WW2 vets were hired, the US majors needed many more pilots for their great expansion in the 1960's, and were able to hire from overseas. So not quite sure where your certainty it would never happen again comes from. Simply put, you have no
idea. Oh, btw, all the other facts mentioned by MM are correct.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...ed-pilots.html
It's a 1000, and only addresses the 'growing shortage' in the US Military. So MM, not quite correct, but the point you make is valid. The shortage is getting more and more acute, and will only get worse. Not sure why you seem so exercised by this iflylow. I suspect you never made it in the US majors, and just have a bit of a chip regarding anyone who does, particularly the idea of someone from another country. Remember, after all the WW2 vets were hired, the US majors needed many more pilots for their great expansion in the 1960's, and were able to hire from overseas. So not quite sure where your certainty it would never happen again comes from. Simply put, you have no
idea. Oh, btw, all the other facts mentioned by MM are correct.
Last edited by Trafalgar; 5th Feb 2018 at 12:51.
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So the military has the option to recall 1000 pilots? They have the option to do a lot of things. As I mentioned before, who has been recalled? List one person. Anyone!!
I have a problem with all Cathay pilot typical BS about things they have no idea about. It’s tiring and so easy to call out.
I have a problem with all Cathay pilot typical BS about things they have no idea about. It’s tiring and so easy to call out.
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I think you missed the point iflylow. MM was incorrect on one point, but correct on all the others. Even on the point of error, his sentiment towards the bigger issue is correct: the military is concerned about a growing retention crises, hence the need for the change in legislation. You seem to have a problem jealously guarding 'your' jobs back home, but fail to see that the situation is evolving. AP also told you his info was from a direct and well connected source. And your info is from...? You obviously never made it in the industry, and you just can't stand to see others succeed where you failed. Can smell that a mile off...
I believe this is what MM was referring to:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...ed-pilots.html
It's a 1000, and only addresses the 'growing shortage' in the US Military. So MM, not quite correct, but the point you make is valid. The shortage is getting more and more acute, and will only get worse. Not sure why you seem so exercised by this iflylow. I suspect you never made it in the US majors, and just have a bit of a chip regarding anyone who does, particularly the idea of someone from another country. Remember, after all the WW2 vets were hired, the US majors needed many more pilots for their great expansion in the 1960's, and were able to hire from overseas. So not quite sure where your certainty it would never happen again comes from. Simply put, you have no idea. Oh, btw, all the other facts mentioned by MM are correct.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...ed-pilots.html
It's a 1000, and only addresses the 'growing shortage' in the US Military. So MM, not quite correct, but the point you make is valid. The shortage is getting more and more acute, and will only get worse. Not sure why you seem so exercised by this iflylow. I suspect you never made it in the US majors, and just have a bit of a chip regarding anyone who does, particularly the idea of someone from another country. Remember, after all the WW2 vets were hired, the US majors needed many more pilots for their great expansion in the 1960's, and were able to hire from overseas. So not quite sure where your certainty it would never happen again comes from. Simply put, you have no
idea. Oh, btw, all the other facts mentioned by MM are correct.Traf,
This is the first paragraph of the article:
"The Trump administration is giving the Air Force the option to return through voluntary programs as many as 1,000 retired pilots to active-duty service, the Pentagon announced."
I'd be surprised to see retired USAF pilots voluntarily leave their legacy airline job to return to service and fly a desk.
As I recall, the USAF decided not to exercise that option...or if they did it was just a handful and not 1,000. I can't find the article stating that but am pretty sure of it.
The National Guard and Reserve pilots currently on airline seniority lists may be called up to active duty for periods of time (and have as long as I can remember) but WILL return to their airline careers...I can promise you that !
In any case, this issue involves insignificant numbers of pilots.
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Yes, I know. That is why I stated MM was wrong in his initial assessment. The fact that the US Govt had to approve this legislation does however confirm the sentiment of MM's post: the military is having trouble crewing their aircraft, as is the rest of the industry.
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Trag,
You seem like a good guy. You quit training so you’ve got that going for you, which is nice. You post a little too much on pprune for what I’d consider normal but no one is perfect. I’d just stay out of this.
MM and Air Profit came on here and started making some big claims, and it was pretty easy to ask for a few details and realize they were both full of. Yes, there may be a pilot shortage at the regional level. No, there will never be a shortage at the legacy level. Anyyone who has ever been involved in aviation in the USA knows this. The legacies would set up ab initio programs (such as Delta and Auburn U) before ever hiring foreigners. ALPA always has and always will be against foreigners with their lobbying muscle. Trump, for another 3 years at least, will never allow it. Congress will lower the 1500 hr limit before they allow foreign pilots in, and their actions have made it clear they aren't even interested in lowering that limit!
Air Profit spreads all this crap because it’s self serving. He’’s been trying to lobby Cathay to sponsor a visa for him to get on a USA base. It’s pathetic to start spreading rumors for your own personal benefit, but what do you expect from a CX Tester?
You seem like a good guy. You quit training so you’ve got that going for you, which is nice. You post a little too much on pprune for what I’d consider normal but no one is perfect. I’d just stay out of this.
MM and Air Profit came on here and started making some big claims, and it was pretty easy to ask for a few details and realize they were both full of
. Yes, there may be a pilot shortage at the regional level. No, there will never be a shortage at the legacy level. Anyyone who has ever been involved in aviation in the USA knows this. The legacies would set up ab initio programs (such as Delta and Auburn U) before ever hiring foreigners. ALPA always has and always will be against foreigners with their lobbying muscle. Trump, for another 3 years at least, will never allow it. Congress will lower the 1500 hr limit before they allow foreign pilots in, and their actions have made it clear they aren't even interested in lowering that limit!Air Profit spreads all this crap because it’s self serving. He’’s been trying to lobby Cathay to sponsor a visa for him to get on a USA base. It’s pathetic to start spreading rumors for your own personal benefit, but what do you expect from a CX Tester?
Last edited by iflylow; 6th Feb 2018 at 01:04.
The military continues to train new pilots by the way but every pipeline has its limits.
The airlines don't give a rat's about the military's staffing problems...and vice versa, by the way. The airlines want EVERY military pilot (now to include rotor wing)...and will get 'em. This is DL's latest public announcement:
"Announcing a change to our minimum pilot requirements!
Effective immediately, Delta will allow pilots of aircraft in the Powered Lift category (e.g. the V22 Osprey, AV8B Harrier, and F35B) to count 90% of your Powered Lift flight time toward our requirement of 1,000 hours fixed wing turbine time.
We do still require that all applicants meet all flight time requirements to hold an AMEL ATP.
If you have any questions please don’t hesitate to send them to us via the Send Message button on our Facebook page!"
https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?i...content_filter
That's why it's amusing to see these two sides "talking" about the matter: chickens talking to the foxes about who gets in the hen house.
Last edited by bafanguy; 5th Feb 2018 at 13:38.