Well that was a big waste of time
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The true problem at CX is not the cost of the pilots. Those expenses (per pilot) have been going down steadily over time. The real issue is that win-win solutions have been ignored in favor of win-lose or even lose-lose. CX feels it loses every time the pilots get anything good. This is a false assumption based on Pareto Optimality (Google it). Some issues are win-lose or lose-win, but many more are win-win or lose-lose. CX has an uncanny ability to choose the latter. They just can’t help themselves because of their institutional contempt for pilots. Pilots, like it or not, are the lifeblood of any airline. We truly are the grease that allows all the other gears to work together. Try to cut us out of the equation or minimize our role and the result is what you see now at CX. They truly believe this operation is like Coke bottling.
Finally, and without a 50%+1 TA! Hurrah!
Ok, so let us pay the invoice for RAI and Glazner and then channel all of the funds/effort into the MULTIPLE lawsuits/legal challenges that are still to be attended.
Perhaps the GC/NC can also come clean on the specifics of what we were aiming for in the CPS/negotiations?
Ok, so let us pay the invoice for RAI and Glazner and then channel all of the funds/effort into the MULTIPLE lawsuits/legal challenges that are still to be attended.
Perhaps the GC/NC can also come clean on the specifics of what we were aiming for in the CPS/negotiations?
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The Bible preaches "turn the other cheek" but it doesn't say keep turning until you have nothing left. The AOA has been turning it's cheek for the last 10 years and by now there isn't much face left to wipe. Time for a vote of no confidence in the president and GC and the election of a war cabinet.
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Could not agree more. And just a word to my colleagues on bases. This is as much about us as well as it is about those in HK. Once the company has neutered HK, they will come for the bases. Don't doubt it for one moment. Everyone of us needs to play our part. Support the rights, value and future of the piloting profession in CX. Either we fight together, or we'll die on our knees, one by one. This is not a game anymore. This is an existential crises within our midst. Make sure this airline realises our value over the holiday period.
How about you blokes get some proper negotiators in to do the talking for you.
If the bosses won't talk to them then ramp up CC/TB?
(I dodged a bullet by saying no to an SO interview, got an FO job on a jet elsewhere)
If the bosses won't talk to them then ramp up CC/TB?
(I dodged a bullet by saying no to an SO interview, got an FO job on a jet elsewhere)
FFS you lot!
Sadly......we live in times where the minority are having an increasingly vocal influence. And not for the good of all. Give The GC a chance. Would it be fair to say the AOA GC are trying for the benefit of all HKG Members? Would it be fair to say that any 1 decision made on any issue by the AOAHKG will not please 100% of all HKG Members? Would it be fair to say that given these unprecented times & circumstances, we should be entrusted to Their Leadership & decisions subject to a Vote amongst members?
I have no doubt that in the days and even weeks to follow, debate will be more heated (even amongst friends as well as colleagues) than a Taiwanese Parliamentary Session. But at the end of the day, give the GC the chance to present their views and reasons as to why they choose their particular path. It may seem crazy, but there may be a bigger picture to which you and I are not privy.
Sadly......we live in times where the minority are having an increasingly vocal influence. And not for the good of all. Give The GC a chance. Would it be fair to say the AOA GC are trying for the benefit of all HKG Members? Would it be fair to say that any 1 decision made on any issue by the AOAHKG will not please 100% of all HKG Members? Would it be fair to say that given these unprecented times & circumstances, we should be entrusted to Their Leadership & decisions subject to a Vote amongst members?
I have no doubt that in the days and even weeks to follow, debate will be more heated (even amongst friends as well as colleagues) than a Taiwanese Parliamentary Session. But at the end of the day, give the GC the chance to present their views and reasons as to why they choose their particular path. It may seem crazy, but there may be a bigger picture to which you and I are not privy.
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And do not thing pro negotiators will help all that much; potentially being a waste of money.
No matter WHO goes in there, they will do so with the constraints and deal making authority vested in them by the GC who in turn gets it from the general membership. Perhaps hired help will know the 'tricks' somewhat better (perhaps not if they haven't had specific dealings with CX) but that is about it.
The very THOUGHT that a GC would be talking to someone using the C word I find repugnant. Sure, new processes and win-wins might be achievable. To that end it might be worth talking. But if that end is NOT happening there is no need for further wastes of time and money. Better to save this to assist members in finding employment elsewhere. Or the inevitable legal battles as COSs are degraded and imposed.
What happens in any negotiations solely depends on the will of the GC and membership at large. This is what drives the train and where the power is vested. And at the end of the day determines what happens next.
NOW
The main issue here is absent a strike, the tools available in HKG have been CC and the training ban. Have these been effective ?
Depends on how you define it (and it depends on the extent to which it's followed).
The TB is (and always has been) a choke point. Not easily worked around and there are tremendous collateral costs in just keeping us current; much less in upgrading people (and the plan has BEEN to upgrade cheaper replacements for those currently in the positions). The company has bet way heavily on this and having the training assets (as well as enticing those after training to remain) is critical. So this is the first place to start.
CC reduces availability and the 'above and beyond' factor--something critical to the airline in that it runs undermanned to begin with.
These two points create a war of attrition; they don't force an outcome right away but take a great deal of time to achieve their effect.
So far they have achieved an effect in spades.
BUT
The effect they have is in reducing supply of operators. What has happened over the last couple of years is the company can't really keep the wheels on and has had to deal with dramatically increased costs and reduced supply (i.e. productivity declines and difficultly in upgrades). So CC/TB HAS been extremely effective in doing this.
BUT
The ultimate goal is to force the company to the table in order to improve working conditions and compensation. The wild card has been (and remains) what do you do with an entity that would rather sink the ship than fix the problems. Keeping the pilots happy has a relatively small cost in the grand scheme of things--especially when considering lost opportunity of expansion which the airline really needs in order to survive. To contract is to die. But this is the apparent course which the company has for whatever reason decided to embrace. It makes absolutely no business or rational sense whatsoever--with C scale pay you get C scale results--and it puts the place in an accelerating death spiral where already high fixed costs overpower the ability to climb out of it with fledging competitors who use incentive nipping at your heels and eventually overtaking you; not unlike decreasing speed on the back side of the power curve behind L/D max (which is kind of where we are at). All of the economic indicators are there.
Now we COULD put the nose down and recover (this would mean making the folks who work here happy; like right away NOW)--which would happen relatively quickly as you unload the wings (assuming you have some altitude to play with below you). But all we seem to get is management pulling further back on the stick. You can't really help ANYONE who is determined to do this; the stall is aggravated as the ship is mishandled and leads to its inevitable conclusion.
Even THINKING the C word is inconceivable in the market and any leadership who does so should probably be replaced. It would have no effect; kinda like a half-hearted bump in power when you're pulling back REALLY hard. The only net effect would be less money in pocket when the ship hits the ground. Unloading the wings MIGHT work, but this would require inflationary adjustment in pay, restoration of housing, and coherent work rules (as well as an immediate offloading of costs by going large on bases where it can). This is the COMPANY'S part in the equation and really all that can be done is steer the ship in THAT direction. IF they are unwilling to listen, it is inevitable that the ship will hit the ground and no one at the working level can fix it.
It's kind of like sitting in the back seat and not being able to override the guy in the front or get him to listen to you in any way. IF he continues to do what he does the best YOU can do is bail out before he takes you with him.
Professional talkers would have no net effect on any of this.
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Totally disagree Shep69
Talk to the big players, BALPA, AALPA, GALPA, etc they all use professional negotiators when it comes down to the wire. Sure the AOA can negoitate RP's and RTL's but when it comes down to money ( and that is all Swire's care about, the bottom line ) then you need hard ass negotiators who are given a brief and a figure and let loose.
We are where we are because back in the day the AOA was a club, even the management were members and everything was settled over a curry and beer at Hebe Haven. They thrived on having amateur pilots sit opposite trained, ruthless management and play business school.
Times have changed and this amateurish approach must change too.
Many have made fun of AT not being able to fly. That isn't her job or her training. She is a manager and negotiator so why do we put forward pilots who think they can manage and negotiate. It's crazy. It also puts these pilots directly in the firing line. Why do it.
Get the professionals in. In the long run it will save jobs, money and maybe the airline itself.
Talk to the big players, BALPA, AALPA, GALPA, etc they all use professional negotiators when it comes down to the wire. Sure the AOA can negoitate RP's and RTL's but when it comes down to money ( and that is all Swire's care about, the bottom line ) then you need hard ass negotiators who are given a brief and a figure and let loose.
We are where we are because back in the day the AOA was a club, even the management were members and everything was settled over a curry and beer at Hebe Haven. They thrived on having amateur pilots sit opposite trained, ruthless management and play business school.
Times have changed and this amateurish approach must change too.
Many have made fun of AT not being able to fly. That isn't her job or her training. She is a manager and negotiator so why do we put forward pilots who think they can manage and negotiate. It's crazy. It also puts these pilots directly in the firing line. Why do it.
Get the professionals in. In the long run it will save jobs, money and maybe the airline itself.
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You, 'who stole my meds' don't work for this Company. Thats an observation (and you point that out) not a criticism however the Company emphatically refuse to talk to anyone that is not CX aircrew/AOA. They WILL NOT TALK to professional negotiators!
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CX management cannot dictate who they will talk to and who they won't. If the AOA chooses to use professionals and the message is from the membership then CX can hardly ignore this. Do you really think the company position is decided by those at CX City ? Their entire strategy is being planned by professionals in New York or London and the message is being delivered by the mouth pieces here in HKG.
The AOA could do exactly the same. Keep the professionals away from the actual meetings but say and do exactly as they say during the face to face meetings.
This isn't rocket science it's how business is conducted in the 21st century.
The AOA could do exactly the same. Keep the professionals away from the actual meetings but say and do exactly as they say during the face to face meetings.
This isn't rocket science it's how business is conducted in the 21st century.
BalusKaptan
Well if they won't talk to hired AOA negotiators then you don't talk to them. They won't talk to professionals cause they know they have no leverage.
Do the absolute minimum till your demands are met. I've never understood why pilots (generally speaking here) have believed they're better negotiators. Is it ego???
Look at all of the big non aviation unions around the world, the employees don't do the negotiating, it's professional's.
As quite rightly said by you, I don't work there but once upon a time I was hell bent on getting a job there but no more. One thing I learned during my research for the job is since '93 T&C's have gone one way, granted, this makes negotiations on the pilots behalf difficult when there is an oversupply of pilots but the tables are now turned. Professional negotiators can make arguments that you can't. Look at previous posts quoting AOA rep's talking about concessions........REALLY? this thinking is insane at a time like this. Hold the line, you get what you want or they get nothing, simple. If all else fails, leave. I walked away from two jobs and am better off for it (but I never left without somewhere to go first)
Pilot negotiators MAY work during times of limited supply but when pilots are falling out of the trees not so much. It looks like we're on the back curve of the supply side now but it's never too late to get the pro's in, particularly when CX is in the situation where they're struggling to not only get pilot's through the training system but to get pilots with respectable levels of experience.
Just something to think about from an outsiders perspective.
PS, Nice name wantok, lukim yu
Do the absolute minimum till your demands are met. I've never understood why pilots (generally speaking here) have believed they're better negotiators. Is it ego???
Look at all of the big non aviation unions around the world, the employees don't do the negotiating, it's professional's.
As quite rightly said by you, I don't work there but once upon a time I was hell bent on getting a job there but no more. One thing I learned during my research for the job is since '93 T&C's have gone one way, granted, this makes negotiations on the pilots behalf difficult when there is an oversupply of pilots but the tables are now turned. Professional negotiators can make arguments that you can't. Look at previous posts quoting AOA rep's talking about concessions........REALLY? this thinking is insane at a time like this. Hold the line, you get what you want or they get nothing, simple. If all else fails, leave. I walked away from two jobs and am better off for it (but I never left without somewhere to go first)
Pilot negotiators MAY work during times of limited supply but when pilots are falling out of the trees not so much. It looks like we're on the back curve of the supply side now but it's never too late to get the pro's in, particularly when CX is in the situation where they're struggling to not only get pilot's through the training system but to get pilots with respectable levels of experience.
Just something to think about from an outsiders perspective.
PS, Nice name wantok, lukim yu
Last edited by Who stole my meds; 17th Nov 2017 at 02:12.