Qatar buys stake in Cathay
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Exactly! Hence the newly minted and much maligned term, “Fake news”! It’s been around forever, better known as propoganda, but now is embraced by almost all journalists across the globe.
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ummm, are you implying there isn't a multitude of reasons? This is just one more. Most sensible pilots are well on their way already in the application/interview stage. Hasta la Vista baby...
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Lots of great jobs out there. Just look at that 744 cargo job on the AOA forum out of the uk paying a whopping £70k a year for skippers. Perfect long term contract, anyone on a base in the UK needs their head examined if they don’t grab that chance. Just use any online resignation letter template, fill in the gaps and you’re out of CX and into that. Home 12 days a month. Amazing.
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....and that company will just have to do without pilots, just like CX will have to soon. Morningcoffee, for every joke of a job, there are now a dozen that have large pay and benefit packages. Not to mention all those mainline carriers in our pilots home countries actively recruiting (for now....). Most of the CX pilots I speak to have concluded that it's time to get real, go home and settle down and enjoy life. Not stress out with the HK rat race, be abused and mistreated and lied to by our management, see their kids become chronically ill and eventually wake up broken, divorced, ill and poor. CX management can wish all of this away, but it's too late. The tide has turned, and the exodus begins. I fly with these people every day. I hear what they are really thinking, not what they are telling the likes of AT at a drinks get-together. But you keep believing that CX is the mecca of aviation. 
(oh, and your "12 days home a month" comment is comically ironic: that is 12 days more a month than most HK based pilots, who have been lied to regarding basing's).
(oh, and your "12 days home a month" comment is comically ironic: that is 12 days more a month than most HK based pilots, who have been lied to regarding basing's).
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Well, I guess we know who the ghost writer for the Friday Fibber is. Hope the coffee's good 
And why we have a mass exodus from people dumping high seniority to begin anew at UPS and just about every other US carrier.
It MIGHT be competitive if you fudge the numbers and use the old A scale. Not to mention CASS, KCM, and a happier work environment at most other places. And a little respect. But as things stand now it's not even close. With a proposed future that's even dimmer.
I GUESS CX might be competitive against a regional; then again one might find himself happier there (which is inconceivable compared with the days of old). Somehow the 'leadership' here has managed to turn a job which is truly a blessing and with which most folks were grateful into something that just pays the bills--kinda sorta not so much--at least for now-- and people don't really like that much anymore.
And why we have a mass exodus from people dumping high seniority to begin anew at UPS and just about every other US carrier.
It MIGHT be competitive if you fudge the numbers and use the old A scale. Not to mention CASS, KCM, and a happier work environment at most other places. And a little respect. But as things stand now it's not even close. With a proposed future that's even dimmer.
I GUESS CX might be competitive against a regional; then again one might find himself happier there (which is inconceivable compared with the days of old). Somehow the 'leadership' here has managed to turn a job which is truly a blessing and with which most folks were grateful into something that just pays the bills--kinda sorta not so much--at least for now-- and people don't really like that much anymore.
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So Shep,
If its all so wonderful everywhere else and everyone's leaving and the place is doomed then why bother with CC. Its a pain in the ass for us, organising my roster when I'm on reserve would be way easier, it doesn't matter what it achieves as everyones leaving and the place is doomed.
Why bother?
If its all so wonderful everywhere else and everyone's leaving and the place is doomed then why bother with CC. Its a pain in the ass for us, organising my roster when I'm on reserve would be way easier, it doesn't matter what it achieves as everyones leaving and the place is doomed.
Why bother?
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Because it's crippling the operation, that's why we 'bother'. But you know that, being management. If our actions aren't effective, why even comment? 'Organizing your roster'...sure.
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You didn't answer my question. Everyone's leaving so why bother. Why waste your life crippling an organisation that apparently you're all leaving? Bit like the ARAPA housing, everyones leaving if it drops even one dollar. Well I'm guessing it's dropping more than one dollar, so why bother waiting to see what its going to drop to. Reality is that no one's going anywhere.
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You sound a bit panicked coffee. At least you will fit in with the rest of your colleagues at the Monday morning management meeting. Oh, and don't worry....many are going everywhere but here. But you go ahead and live in the land of delusion. The facts will speak for themselves. And for clarification, the only people crippling the organisation are the management. The pilots are simply reacting out of self preservation. Put the blame where it belongs, squarely in your own laps.
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LOL--yep, +2 Traf.
Nice try there, coffee. Maybe y'all could use a few better spin doctors and staff writers.
It's amazing that a manager of an airline would let it get to the point that when a large percentage of its pilots simply executes their contract--no more, no less--that it could 'cripple' the organization. Sounds like a resource problem to me.
And if the NEEDED someones to go above and beyond (which they obviously do), I'd be pretty keen to keep them happy and make peace in times of conflict.
This is how incentive based functional places work btw. And for the others, if it's going to hit problems with a stick, it'd better have a contract (and manning) it can live with when things go south. Which it obviously doesn't.
It's TRIED the stick approach over the last few years. It's TRIED its 'continuous reserve' (aka crisis management) rostering approach -- all miserable failures. Now it's reaping the results and is running scared. Be interesting to see the denouement.
Now there ARE ways out (maybe). These have been well published and are well known over the last several years. They AIN'T done by cancelling things, slashing and burning, and further alienating the very people you NEED to run the place.
Yup, ya need people. And happy people. And ya gotta invest in them and keep them happy. The treating people like coal don't work.
And ya are going to have to admit you were wrong and do a few (real) things to actually fix stuff around here.
For most of us normal humans, admitting mistakes (and doing what we can to fix them) is actually not that big of a deal. It's part of being a person and living life. Might want to give it a try.
FWIW no idea what fraction of stock is publicly traded. If it's tiny (and the block masters are happy with the way things are going) then probably no worries for anyone 'in charge'. But there are many ways to play the hostile takeover game. The hi-bid leveraging assets a company has on hand is only ONE way; it works in the other direction too. Being stuck somewheres in the upper managerial levels during this isn't a very good place to be in terms of job security.
Nice try there, coffee. Maybe y'all could use a few better spin doctors and staff writers.
It's amazing that a manager of an airline would let it get to the point that when a large percentage of its pilots simply executes their contract--no more, no less--that it could 'cripple' the organization. Sounds like a resource problem to me.
And if the NEEDED someones to go above and beyond (which they obviously do), I'd be pretty keen to keep them happy and make peace in times of conflict.
This is how incentive based functional places work btw. And for the others, if it's going to hit problems with a stick, it'd better have a contract (and manning) it can live with when things go south. Which it obviously doesn't.
It's TRIED the stick approach over the last few years. It's TRIED its 'continuous reserve' (aka crisis management) rostering approach -- all miserable failures. Now it's reaping the results and is running scared. Be interesting to see the denouement.
Now there ARE ways out (maybe). These have been well published and are well known over the last several years. They AIN'T done by cancelling things, slashing and burning, and further alienating the very people you NEED to run the place.
Yup, ya need people. And happy people. And ya gotta invest in them and keep them happy. The treating people like coal don't work.
And ya are going to have to admit you were wrong and do a few (real) things to actually fix stuff around here.
For most of us normal humans, admitting mistakes (and doing what we can to fix them) is actually not that big of a deal. It's part of being a person and living life. Might want to give it a try.
FWIW no idea what fraction of stock is publicly traded. If it's tiny (and the block masters are happy with the way things are going) then probably no worries for anyone 'in charge'. But there are many ways to play the hostile takeover game. The hi-bid leveraging assets a company has on hand is only ONE way; it works in the other direction too. Being stuck somewheres in the upper managerial levels during this isn't a very good place to be in terms of job security.
Last edited by Shep69; 12th Nov 2017 at 17:57.
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If management really took a good hard look in the mirror, what would they see? An abject failure!
Was cancelling RPs really worth it? Was what was gained, one three man LHR, worth what was lost, continued CC and a TB?
How many CX pilots have any goodwill left? Not many, and those who do are not encouraged by what they see today.
I actually think CX is yet to hit the iceberg, but the time remaining to turn the ship is getting very short. Pilots are patient and forgiving by trade, but the well is running awfully dry. There simply isn’t much juice left in the orange to squeeze.
Was cancelling RPs really worth it? Was what was gained, one three man LHR, worth what was lost, continued CC and a TB?
How many CX pilots have any goodwill left? Not many, and those who do are not encouraged by what they see today.
I actually think CX is yet to hit the iceberg, but the time remaining to turn the ship is getting very short. Pilots are patient and forgiving by trade, but the well is running awfully dry. There simply isn’t much juice left in the orange to squeeze.
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Ya, this is a very good point I think.
RP-16 isn't substantially different than RP-07 other than the largely failed 3-man thing. The two are pretty much the same. But folks now know the company is willing to toss really anything out the window when it suits them.
IF the company wants to retain anyone, cancelling ARAPA (same concept as above) has only thrown uncertainty into the mix and created bad will. They are still going to have to pay; it's just demonstrated that keeping your word doesn't mean much. In fact, they might have to pay MORE.
The current rostering philosophy has been a complete mess and has cost the company money as well as decreasing productivity. Total cock up.
ALL with stuff that could have been pretty much left alone.
PERHAPS it could be turned around--but this would take real action and a pretty significant epiphany. And one in which trust and good will were fostered (it takes a really long time to build trust, and can be wiped away very quickly). In which quality of product and a healthy working environment fostering teamwork, incentive, and excellence were placed above all else. Chiseling and cost cutting (which has largely involved stepping over thousands of dollars to pick up a penny) is not really a part of this equation and has been our vector to date.
I agree completely the hull of the ship has been given a pretty big gash. Whether the pumps O' cash can keep up while things are fixed (IF they are fixed) until the direction is changed and things are shored up is anyone's guess.
RP-16 isn't substantially different than RP-07 other than the largely failed 3-man thing. The two are pretty much the same. But folks now know the company is willing to toss really anything out the window when it suits them.
IF the company wants to retain anyone, cancelling ARAPA (same concept as above) has only thrown uncertainty into the mix and created bad will. They are still going to have to pay; it's just demonstrated that keeping your word doesn't mean much. In fact, they might have to pay MORE.
The current rostering philosophy has been a complete mess and has cost the company money as well as decreasing productivity. Total cock up.
ALL with stuff that could have been pretty much left alone.
PERHAPS it could be turned around--but this would take real action and a pretty significant epiphany. And one in which trust and good will were fostered (it takes a really long time to build trust, and can be wiped away very quickly). In which quality of product and a healthy working environment fostering teamwork, incentive, and excellence were placed above all else. Chiseling and cost cutting (which has largely involved stepping over thousands of dollars to pick up a penny) is not really a part of this equation and has been our vector to date.
I agree completely the hull of the ship has been given a pretty big gash. Whether the pumps O' cash can keep up while things are fixed (IF they are fixed) until the direction is changed and things are shored up is anyone's guess.
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Shep and Traf,
Were you amongst the B scalers that proudly voted for a pay raise a while back
but only if A scalers only got a zero percent pay raise? Were you a member of the AOA that recently decided they’d put freighter issues on the back burner because pax pilots have already got everything the freighter guys want, so who cares? I tell you what, I’ll pretend I’m in management and you can pretend you’re in a unified pilot group where you’re not just out for yourselves.
B scalers joined on B scale because that’s all that was on offer, somehow C scalers doing the same thing is completely different.
Were you amongst the B scalers that proudly voted for a pay raise a while back
but only if A scalers only got a zero percent pay raise? Were you a member of the AOA that recently decided they’d put freighter issues on the back burner because pax pilots have already got everything the freighter guys want, so who cares? I tell you what, I’ll pretend I’m in management and you can pretend you’re in a unified pilot group where you’re not just out for yourselves.
B scalers joined on B scale because that’s all that was on offer, somehow C scalers doing the same thing is completely different.
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Shep and Traf,
Were you amongst the B scalers that proudly voted for a pay raise a while back
but only if A scalers only got a zero percent pay raise? Were you a member of the AOA that recently decided they’d put freighter issues on the back burner because pax pilots have already got everything the freighter guys want, so who cares? I tell you what, I’ll pretend I’m in management and you can pretend you’re in a unified pilot group where you’re not just out for yourselves.
B scalers joined on B scale because that’s all that was on offer, somehow C scalers doing the same thing is completely different.
Were you amongst the B scalers that proudly voted for a pay raise a while back
but only if A scalers only got a zero percent pay raise? Were you a member of the AOA that recently decided they’d put freighter issues on the back burner because pax pilots have already got everything the freighter guys want, so who cares? I tell you what, I’ll pretend I’m in management and you can pretend you’re in a unified pilot group where you’re not just out for yourselves.
B scalers joined on B scale because that’s all that was on offer, somehow C scalers doing the same thing is completely different.
You might want to consider when you start throwing spears at people instead of issues you are probably losing the point. Then again that probably sums up the company's recent 'strategy' campaigns so there ya have it.
There are many cool things I have in life I that I really like and am very grateful for.
I like this opening scene from True Grit and the wisdom there:
(wish I could figure out how to imbed video clips but this is the best I can do)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSo1nhSfgbA
"You must pay for everything in this world, one way or another. There is nothing free.....Except the Grace of God."
If the best you can do is C scale pay, you get C scale results. One way or another. And it is all encompassing and it shows in spades. This is not serving the Company particularly well at this point nor is it likely to do so in the future.
Best of luck to you; hopefully Bruce won't throw ya out of the lifeboat.
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This industry is littered with the wreckage of airlines that pushed their staff one step too far. A classic case was that of Eastern Airlines, one of the large legacy carriers in the USA during the late 80/90's. They were bought out by Frank Lorenzo (wikipedia if not sure). He had a similar idea to our current CX management (and yes, our management are so clueless they are attempting failed strategies of over 30 years ago), which was to slash staff costs and benefits, and...surprise, maximise 'shareholder' value and management bonuses. Well, with Eastern, he pushed that one step too far. Faced with an ultimatum to come off strike and 'accept' their imposed terms with a threat of shutting down the airline if they didn't.....most of the employees decided that is simply wasn't worth continuing with a management and career that was full of uncertainty and intimidation (sound familiar). They simply let the airline shut down. Nearly all the employees found good careers in other airlines. The moral of the story is simply this: people have a breaking point. CX management, you have pushed yours right up to that point. Go ahead, push just that little bit further.... 
And Coffee, just an update. During my flight to HK yesterday, both FO's just interviewed with carriers in the USA and 'Europe'. Both awaiting course dates. The SO told me he is gone the first day he can arrange a decent job ANYWHERE else (his words). I also was made aware by one of the FO's that he has three friends following him through the interview process at the same airline he is awaiting a course date from. Also interesting was his reasoning: he didn't want to get left behind or lose his early place on his new seniority list. He also said that it was too late for any reconciliation with CX. He explained that ALL trust and faith was irrevocably lost. No matter what was said or promised at this point, he had concluded that it was almost a 95% certainty it would be a lie. THAT is what you and your kind have accomplished. Well done.
And Coffee, just an update. During my flight to HK yesterday, both FO's just interviewed with carriers in the USA and 'Europe'. Both awaiting course dates. The SO told me he is gone the first day he can arrange a decent job ANYWHERE else (his words). I also was made aware by one of the FO's that he has three friends following him through the interview process at the same airline he is awaiting a course date from. Also interesting was his reasoning: he didn't want to get left behind or lose his early place on his new seniority list. He also said that it was too late for any reconciliation with CX. He explained that ALL trust and faith was irrevocably lost. No matter what was said or promised at this point, he had concluded that it was almost a 95% certainty it would be a lie. THAT is what you and your kind have accomplished. Well done.
Last edited by Trafalgar; 13th Nov 2017 at 02:16.