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China the Country. China the delay not determined, the joke.

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

China the Country. China the delay not determined, the joke.

Old 31st Jul 2017, 16:44
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by UNIFO View Post
Forget about US controllers, we don't do visual approach and cowboy RT in Asia.
Maybe visual approaches and "cowboy RT" are required for more movements without infrastructure and airspace expansion. Having to hold every crews' hands onto ILS final seems a bit archaic to me. We could TCAS follow traffic ahead with decent pointouts and monitored separation, much less a visual sequence which admittedly would be difficult on most days in the HK smog. Of course, low time crews are not helping matters either. If the assertion is that the US ATC is unsafe, please support that with statistics.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2017, 00:29
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: china
Age: 57
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by Curtain rod View Post
It seems that the King Canute story is often misintepreted, as its meaning is actually the opposite of what it seems above:

King Canute and the Waves
Years ago (>6) they hired Aussie/Brit/Umurican rock star controllers in HK. They were all really good. But with the majority of aircraft in and out of the airport being WB or god help em "Supers", ATC just isn't that busy here on the radio. The two minute separation keeps the radio com pretty tame.

As far as cowboy RT, it is often required with one minute separation and 4+ active runways at the same airport. Not a lot of time to talk to each aircraft.

Flying into and out of HKIA is a breeze. Try ORD or ATL in the afternoon bank of arrivals, and then Air India or Air China check in and try to use perfect, slow, ICAO ATC. Then it is time to "cowboy up". Yeah it is not "right". But it is required.
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Old 1st Aug 2017, 01:30
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: All Over
Posts: 471
The US ATC system is the most efficient on the planet, bar none. And it accomplishes this exceptionally safely.

It DOES use a multitude of tools to accomplish things including visual approaches, visual separation, slam dunks, fast paced instructions, clipped comm, creative geometry etc (how much have you actually used a holding pattern in the US ?) So if you want to play in the park you need to be up on the game. And realize the world doesn't necessarily revolve around YOU--but solving a puzzle with a whole bunch of airplanes getting in and out of a limited amount of concrete. If you don't do this you risk getting kicked out of the game.

I don't know that even with US 'techniques' it'd help HK all that much due the limited amount of concrete. Maybe some but not as much as some might think. Mainland China for sure.

Guess I'd better be more proactive with my "trucker comm" around Asia; maybe it'll rub off on someone.
Shep69 is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2017, 11:41
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 129
How come in light of the delays, business jets with maybe 5-10 pax on board are still allowed into HKIA?
Why not send all biz traffic to macau?
Boe787 is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2017, 12:37
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: hongkong
Posts: 398
Comms are 'busier' because they insist on vectoring u around a hold or final approach course from limes
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Old 1st Aug 2017, 13:53
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 75
Good old Capt X on the latest Dear Gus took all the China delays enroute HKG-LHR, landed with minimum fuel and 52+ minutes duty extension presumably on a 3 man ops. CC must be terrifying them!
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Old 1st Aug 2017, 15:18
  #27 (permalink)  
CCA
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Up there
Posts: 171
Thanks for letting us know UNIFO.

Any chance of "monitor tower" on taxi out, auto change to departure frequency after take off and perhaps as someone else suggested a delivery frequency dedicated to China?
CCA is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2017, 21:39
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Where You Aren't
Posts: 506
When was the last time there was a mid-air collision when one plane on departure climbed up the a$$ of the plane in front of it?
Oval3Holer is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2017, 23:18
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: hk
Age: 63
Posts: 151
If the tower controller wants to keep aircraft 'visually' separated on departure he must have extremely good eyesight and distance judgment with parallax error and HK smog all thrown in.
PanZa-Lead is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2017, 02:33
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 754
Auto change to departure is not a good idea because of the separation issue. Tower might need to keep to departure for a while to separate it from other traffic visually.
I would guess the helicopter traffic to/from GFS.

Why is the separation issue not a problem at the zillions of places that do autoswitch to departure?
Maybe because other airports are not squeezed right up against a line of hills up to about 3000'. Helicopter traffic needs to approach and depart the field in close parallel to the fixed wing tracks
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Old 2nd Aug 2017, 06:45
  #31 (permalink)  
CCA
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Up there
Posts: 171
How about auto switch on departure is made standard except when helicopter or whatever traffic is mentioned?

Ie

" Traffic bla bla clear for takeoff bla bla remain this frequency airborne"

Auto switch could probably be used 80+% of the time
CCA is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2017, 13:32
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by CCA View Post
How about auto switch on departure is made standard except when helicopter or whatever traffic is mentioned?

Ie

" Traffic bla bla clear for takeoff bla bla remain this frequency airborne"

Auto switch could probably be used 80+% of the time
Careful CCA, you're starting to make common sense with ideas like those, and we know that doesn't work in Asia. Somebody might have to lose face. Can't have that!!!
cxorcist is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2017, 13:46
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Uk
Posts: 55
I think the worst thing that ATC do is switch us from 123.8 to 119.1 approaching PORPA, just as all hell breaks loose in the cockpit as 5000' is captured (not yet cleared above) etc (although most of the lightning hands have cancelled the restriction and then get flustered!). It would seem more sensible to remain on 123.8 until after PORPA and THEN change frequency.
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Old 5th Aug 2017, 05:53
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 183
...and DXB used to have an auto switch. Now they have reverted to individual frequency changes. I presume, that due to some people continuing to auto switch they have added extra R/T in the form "XXX cleared for take off Rwy30R, remain this frequency when airborne". Coupled with the actual freq change this results in lots of extra chat on twr freq.
744drv is offline  

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