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Old 11th Jul 2017, 22:35
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Dragon Questions

Hi all

Please could some kind souls at Dragon help answer the following questions. I realise it's a big ask but any info greatly appreciated.

What is the time to command?
Which fleet do new joiners start on? (I've got medium and large Boeing & Airbus experience).

When can you change fleet - is it an annual request/fleet notice/told what to do based on 'operational requirement'? 😬

Roster Patterns- are there many tours - 3-3, 3-2-3, 3-4-3 rotations etc.
How do these compare with the number of daytrips?

When you're doing multiple sectors per day do you keep the same aircraft?
Is there much sitting around between flights in HKG on tour?

Is roster version 1.0 fiction, does it change much (China Wx delays aside)?

How many weekends are spent working?
How many earlies per month?
How many days off per month?
How many nightstops per month?

How is Leave allocated?
How easy is it to get?
Do you have to take blocks of days?

Is part time working offered? Will it be?

Thanks very much for helping-out

Cheers

Xxx666

Last edited by Xxx666; 12th Jul 2017 at 00:03.
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Old 12th Jul 2017, 09:35
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Wow, thats a lot of questions...

Fleet, 50/50 and frozen for 2 years.

Basically KA is no different to any other short haul airline where you work your usual 16 - 18 days per month with a mix of day trips, 2 & 3 day patterns and the odd 4 day pattern.

Delays, do your research, china makes up the lions share of the sectors so expect delays and therefor roster disruption.

Time to command, hard to say but if you have good experience and are truly a good operator then 12 months is not out of the question (could change though at any time)
Many have arrived in the past year or two thinking that a command will be handed to them in good time but have found the operation a little outside there reach.

Leave system works ok and there is a limited preferential bidding system that can get you either weekends off, early/late starts or max overnights. (chose one)

Part time????

You haven't asked about living expenses in HK so I presume you have done your research on that matter.

Hope this helps.

JY
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Old 12th Jul 2017, 10:15
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Thanks JY that's great.

Yes - all the HK research is done. Just need rents to drop by 95% and China to open more airspace and then my unicorn and I will be happy.

Cheers

Xxx666
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Old 12th Jul 2017, 11:42
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why is it every first officer will ask the typical question "How long to command?"

When you join a foreign outfit, you come in at an entry level..that means you are literally at their mercy. That is if you have signed on the dotted line.

If you come in thinking that they will give you command at your own speculated time, I think you are in for a false horizon.

1 year to command in KA? well....well....

HKg is not for you if you have a family...get the hint?

Take care...
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Old 12th Jul 2017, 11:43
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why is it every first officer will ask the typical question "How long to command?"

When you join a foreign outfit, you come in at an entry level..that means you are literally at their mercy. That is if you have signed on the dotted line.

If you come in thinking that they will give you command at your own speculated time, I think you are in for a false horizon.

1 year to command in KA? well....well....

HKg is not for you if you have a family...get the hint?

Take care...
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Old 12th Jul 2017, 11:59
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Career progression and potential is important when considering career options. Generating options - like we do in the aircraft.

This is a discussion seeking info specifically about the points mentioned - not about the merits of living in Hong Kong (my wife has PR and we've lived in HK before) but thanks anyway.

Last edited by Xxx666; 12th Jul 2017 at 21:27.
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Old 12th Jul 2017, 14:47
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Because it's a valid question and they have every right to weigh up a career decision however they like?

New joiners are starting the command process at 8 months starting with the command workshop, to pre command assessment and then the course. Still a long way to go but it does come quick. As mentioned above, the slots are there for now, but it's up to the individual to seize the moment so to speak.
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Old 12th Jul 2017, 14:55
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Thanks very much Pilot_Recruit
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Old 19th Jul 2017, 10:21
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how is success rate in command course these days?
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Old 19th Jul 2017, 15:29
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Somewhere between 50-75% I think at the moment. Much improved on the first 6 months of last year where it was zero...
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Old 19th Jul 2017, 17:28
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Originally Posted by MPPCAG
Somewhere between 50-75% I think at the moment. Much improved on the first 6 months of last year where it was zero...
Statistics are pointless in assessing the time for command, its the calibre of the applicant that makes the difference. Having jet command experience means nothing at KA, it just helps you get through the door.

Put yourself in a dark place with with everything going wrong, look to the person next to you for assistance and and realise that you are better off doing it yourself as they will only mislead you. Add in the requirement to operate in a non radar environment flying approaches with commencement altitudes below the MSA with no holds to let down into, that is the command course in KA......If your ready, they are happy to offer you a command OPPORTUNITY, nothing more
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Old 19th Jul 2017, 22:07
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Go to Hong Kong International Airport - Your Regional Hub with Worldwide Connections and Gateway to China
and type in KA under flight number. You will see the average afternoon 3-6 hour delay per flights to/from Beijing or Shanghai on any summer afternoon.

Not a deal breaker, but really its so boring here.
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Old 19th Jul 2017, 22:24
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Originally Posted by KABOY
Statistics are pointless in assessing the time for command, its the calibre of the applicant that makes the difference. Having jet command experience means nothing at KA, it just helps you get through the door.

Put yourself in a dark place with with everything going wrong, look to the person next to you for assistance and and realise that you are better off doing it yourself as they will only mislead you. Add in the requirement to operate in a non radar environment flying approaches with commencement altitudes below the MSA with no holds to let down into, that is the command course in KA......If your ready, they are happy to offer you a command OPPORTUNITY, nothing more
Show me an airport that does not have a STAR or a Holding Pattern that will get you below the MSA..
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Old 20th Jul 2017, 03:46
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Originally Posted by JY9024
Show me an airport that does not have a STAR or a Holding Pattern that will get you below the MSA..
About every ERA in the South Pacific and China.
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Old 20th Jul 2017, 09:06
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Originally Posted by Natca
About every ERA in the South Pacific and China.
Name one!!
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Old 20th Jul 2017, 12:08
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Originally Posted by UNIFO
Which STAR or holding pattern in HKG get you below MSA?
Really??

Limes at 4500 (MSA 4300) then fly the published approach 07L
Or
TD at 4500 then fly the published approach 25R
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Old 20th Jul 2017, 14:14
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Limes is 6000B/3000A.
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Old 20th Jul 2017, 23:10
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Originally Posted by crwkunt roll
Limes is 6000B/3000A.
I have no idea what you are on about here...

My point that I'm trying to make is that every airport has (by design) a method of arrival to the IAF ensuring terrain clearance when below the MSA,

Im open to be proven wrong here...
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 05:04
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Limes is 6000B/3000A.
Below 6000 and above 3000. Minimum radar altitude is 4100 at that point.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 05:39
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What is the time to command?
The record is about 9 months for a very experienced Airbus operator. If you are good with china and the dark night single pilot thing I would allow 18 months minimum, 30 if you need two goes.

Which fleet do new joiners start on? (I've got medium and large Boeing & Airbus experience).
It's 50/50 at the company's discretion. Try for the 320 if they offer.

When can you change fleet - is it an annual request/fleet notice/told what to do based on 'operational requirement'? 😬
You are frozen for 2 years then you may bid for positions on the other fleet. You'll need about 12 years for the 330 command.

Roster Patterns- are there many tours - 3-3, 3-2-3, 3-4-3 rotations etc.
How do these compare with the number of daytrips?
When you're doing multiple sectors per day do you keep the same aircraft?
Is there much sitting around between flights in HKG on tour?
It varies a lot by fleet and a little by your bid preferences but I'd say you'll get 3 or 4 multi day trips per month with an aircraft change almost guaranteed for every HKG transit. Most patterns are 3-0-2-1, 3-2-3 or 1-2-3. You'll then get another 6-10 day trips. There isn't much sitting around anymore unless there are delays with your next aircraft.

Is roster version 1.0 fiction, does it change much (China Wx delays aside)?
I'm up to version 7 for July and we're only two weeks in.. in summer it's not really worth the paper it's printed on except your days off won't change unless you run late into one.

How many weekends are spent working?
Majority of them but you can request weekends off. After a few years you might expect one or two per month and a sat or a sun here and there

How many earlies per month?
In training, always. Otherwise as an FO you can request them with a good strike rate. As a 320 skipper.. no chance. Most earlies start between 06:50-08:30.

How many days off per month?
Min 8 max 12 averages out to about 9 days in blocks of 2 or 3. You can request a block of 4 in advance and it's subject to availability & a block of 5 twice per year. You'll be rostered to the max either side though!

How many nightstops per month?
at least 4 usually 6 on the 320 unless you bid for more.

How is Leave allocated?
How easy is it to get?
Do you have to take blocks of days?
Annually by seniority with a points system to even out a few things.

If you bid for peak periods as an FO you'll do okay, as a new skipper, no chance!

Yes. One week blocks or you can wait til it's all over and take single days.

Is part time working offered? Will it be?
not really anymore, not likely, they're short of crew.

Come, get a rating and a command then go where you want to be IMO. Family life here is a mere existence on a FO wage and a little easier on a skipper wage but after schooling and accommodation you won't be making any large investments.

The company has a long way to go with recognising the detrimental effect of ever changing rosters and they showed how much we are valued this year - after offering some staff a 4% pay rise and paying out exec bonuses we were offered ZERO 0%.

The crews you'll work with are great, we are a big Check little training airline.

I hope this helps.

Last edited by TSIO540; 21st Jul 2017 at 08:30.
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